ᐅ Creating a Plan for Insulating an Old Building – How to Proceed?
Created on: 30 Aug 2022 10:30
T
Tobibi
Hello,
I’m currently trying to make a plan for how to best improve the insulation of our house. I hope I can write everything down clearly so that some of you might be able to give me tips or suggest different approaches.
We bought a large house from 1982, about 200 sqm (2,150 sq ft) of living space. There is an approximately 6-year-old heat pump for heating and hot water, and a small wood stove in the living room. The ground floor and first floor have underfloor heating, while three basement rooms and a converted room above the garage have radiators. These radiators have a separate heating circuit with their own flow temperature and are rarely used, actually not at all in the basement.
In the main bedroom on the first floor, the previous owner opened the ceiling a few years ago, creating a high space that goes up to the roof ridge. The roof was insulated at that time, but I don’t have any documentation on how well. The rest of the house remains in its original condition, so basically uninsulated.
The walls are solid brick. The wooden windows have double glazing. Many windows and the front door do not seal well, allowing noticeable drafts at some windows. The top floor ceiling is not concrete but made of joists, covered underneath on the first floor with drywall and boards on top. Between the joists, there appears to be rock wool insulation packed in.
We have a 9 kWp photovoltaic system with battery storage, which the previous owner also installed. As it currently stands, the electricity from the photovoltaic system cannot be used for the heat pump, only for other household electricity. There is a separate meter with a heating electricity contract. Surplus electricity is fed back into the grid.
I recently received the heating electricity bill, showing that from March 2021 to March 2022—one full year—we used about 12,500 kWh for heating and hot water, which I find quite high. I definitely want to take action, especially since electricity prices are rising sharply. I’m not an experienced DIYer, but I can assist and have very helpful father and father-in-law who have a lot of skills. So, some things could be done ourselves, although time is always a factor.
A no-brainer seems to be replacing the window seals and adjusting them so they close tightly again. I am already in contact with a company for this.
Next, I’m thinking about insulating the roller shutter boxes. I would probably get a company to do this as well.
I’m considering insulating the basement ceiling with insulation boards that can be glued or fixed with plugs. If there are instructions available, we would rather do that ourselves. Or should I focus on insulating the top floor ceiling or installing insulation between the rafters? Or both? Probably not at the same time—maybe one this year and the other in a year or two. What would be the better order?
Would it make sense to modify the photovoltaic system so that the electricity can be used for the heat pump? I would have to hire an electrician for that, which costs money. But then the electricity would be usable for heating, and there would be only one basic fee. On the other hand, the yield in winter is not very good, and I would lose the cheaper heating electricity tariff. I once tracked generated, fed-in, self-used, and purchased electricity over a longer period and basically concluded that the conversion might not be worthwhile. But now electricity prices are rising dramatically.
Insulating the facade and/or installing new windows is honestly too expensive for me right now. On the other hand, we will need to have the entire exterior repainted next year or the year after. That costs several thousand when done professionally, which would almost offset the cost of external wall insulation. But presumably, these two should go together—insulation and new windows—because doing only one is not sensible and could cause problems with condensation.
So, that turned out to be quite a long message. I hope it’s understandable. How would you proceed? If I forgot anything, just ask. I might also add a follow-up later.
Best regards,
Tobi
I’m currently trying to make a plan for how to best improve the insulation of our house. I hope I can write everything down clearly so that some of you might be able to give me tips or suggest different approaches.
We bought a large house from 1982, about 200 sqm (2,150 sq ft) of living space. There is an approximately 6-year-old heat pump for heating and hot water, and a small wood stove in the living room. The ground floor and first floor have underfloor heating, while three basement rooms and a converted room above the garage have radiators. These radiators have a separate heating circuit with their own flow temperature and are rarely used, actually not at all in the basement.
In the main bedroom on the first floor, the previous owner opened the ceiling a few years ago, creating a high space that goes up to the roof ridge. The roof was insulated at that time, but I don’t have any documentation on how well. The rest of the house remains in its original condition, so basically uninsulated.
The walls are solid brick. The wooden windows have double glazing. Many windows and the front door do not seal well, allowing noticeable drafts at some windows. The top floor ceiling is not concrete but made of joists, covered underneath on the first floor with drywall and boards on top. Between the joists, there appears to be rock wool insulation packed in.
We have a 9 kWp photovoltaic system with battery storage, which the previous owner also installed. As it currently stands, the electricity from the photovoltaic system cannot be used for the heat pump, only for other household electricity. There is a separate meter with a heating electricity contract. Surplus electricity is fed back into the grid.
I recently received the heating electricity bill, showing that from March 2021 to March 2022—one full year—we used about 12,500 kWh for heating and hot water, which I find quite high. I definitely want to take action, especially since electricity prices are rising sharply. I’m not an experienced DIYer, but I can assist and have very helpful father and father-in-law who have a lot of skills. So, some things could be done ourselves, although time is always a factor.
A no-brainer seems to be replacing the window seals and adjusting them so they close tightly again. I am already in contact with a company for this.
Next, I’m thinking about insulating the roller shutter boxes. I would probably get a company to do this as well.
I’m considering insulating the basement ceiling with insulation boards that can be glued or fixed with plugs. If there are instructions available, we would rather do that ourselves. Or should I focus on insulating the top floor ceiling or installing insulation between the rafters? Or both? Probably not at the same time—maybe one this year and the other in a year or two. What would be the better order?
Would it make sense to modify the photovoltaic system so that the electricity can be used for the heat pump? I would have to hire an electrician for that, which costs money. But then the electricity would be usable for heating, and there would be only one basic fee. On the other hand, the yield in winter is not very good, and I would lose the cheaper heating electricity tariff. I once tracked generated, fed-in, self-used, and purchased electricity over a longer period and basically concluded that the conversion might not be worthwhile. But now electricity prices are rising dramatically.
Insulating the facade and/or installing new windows is honestly too expensive for me right now. On the other hand, we will need to have the entire exterior repainted next year or the year after. That costs several thousand when done professionally, which would almost offset the cost of external wall insulation. But presumably, these two should go together—insulation and new windows—because doing only one is not sensible and could cause problems with condensation.
So, that turned out to be quite a long message. I hope it’s understandable. How would you proceed? If I forgot anything, just ask. I might also add a follow-up later.
Best regards,
Tobi
N
nordanney22 May 2024 00:53MartinR. schrieb:
Room temperature of the unfinished, empty storage room 14°C (57°F) / humidity 100%.
Mold on the walls, water stains, odor, etc.
According to the technical manager of the authority, exterior insulation was not possible because the exterior wall is directly at the curb by the street and partly subject to heritage protection.
Room temperature of a finished room after four coats of paint on the exterior wall, which is a total of 2.5m (8 feet 2 inches) thick, and interior walls with 1mm (0.04 inches) thickness
20°C (68°F) and humidity at 55%
Completion of the room was about three weeks before the inspection.
Comfortable indoor atmosphere, no odor, no stains, and no mold.
All rooms are unheated and not insulated. If the rooms are not heated, how is an increase in temperature possible? It isn’t, because physics cannot be bypassed (at least not currently).
And 100% relative humidity at 14°C (57°F) corresponds to 68.3% relative humidity at 20°C (68°F). A reduction in humidity is only possible through ventilation.
Otherwise, everything regarding the products has already been discussed. Warming up does not improve the situation.
N
nordanney22 May 2024 00:54This product description from the attachments says it all about the product: COLOR, no insulation.
Oh wow... I can already tell. The datasheet was translated by OpenAI. There are surely thousands of mistakes if you want to nitpick, but the description itself is not the issue—it's about the values.
I'm not trying to sell anything or sugarcoat the situation here. I'm simply sharing my firsthand experience and, apparently, I’m the only one in this forum who has actually seen this "paint" applied live.
Regarding your comment about trying to make me look foolish—thank you for that.
The room is in the basement and has single-glazed steel frame tilt windows. Sunlight and the resulting heat buildup have likely changed the indoor climate and stored heat, which is what insulation should also do. And no, nothing has been answered here so far—neither by supporters nor by those who always take a completely negative stance.
The professional provides no facts and tries to sell, and the only argument from the opposition is the same old thing: “It can’t be, because it hasn’t happened before.”
Small companies develop a product further that already existed, and if it really works, it would be the end for all insulation manufacturers.
They would obviously never bring this "paint" to market because they would have to admit to themselves and their customers that they had produced the wrong, environmentally harmful insulation material for decades.
I find this topic incredibly fascinating and think it’s sad how forums like this categorically dismiss everything and get hung up on formatting errors and poor translations instead of seriously engaging with the subject.
I am still very skeptical but do not reject it outright just because I don’t understand it.
I'm not trying to sell anything or sugarcoat the situation here. I'm simply sharing my firsthand experience and, apparently, I’m the only one in this forum who has actually seen this "paint" applied live.
Regarding your comment about trying to make me look foolish—thank you for that.
The room is in the basement and has single-glazed steel frame tilt windows. Sunlight and the resulting heat buildup have likely changed the indoor climate and stored heat, which is what insulation should also do. And no, nothing has been answered here so far—neither by supporters nor by those who always take a completely negative stance.
The professional provides no facts and tries to sell, and the only argument from the opposition is the same old thing: “It can’t be, because it hasn’t happened before.”
Small companies develop a product further that already existed, and if it really works, it would be the end for all insulation manufacturers.
They would obviously never bring this "paint" to market because they would have to admit to themselves and their customers that they had produced the wrong, environmentally harmful insulation material for decades.
I find this topic incredibly fascinating and think it’s sad how forums like this categorically dismiss everything and get hung up on formatting errors and poor translations instead of seriously engaging with the subject.
I am still very skeptical but do not reject it outright just because I don’t understand it.
N
nordanney22 May 2024 07:35MartinR. schrieb:
What has never happened before cannot happen. What is physically impossible cannot happen. That is the problem.
And a color mixed with small beads (microspheres) cannot insulate in the same way as vacuum insulation panels.
Please calculate the U-value of the finished wall yourself. You will see that the claimed insulation performance simply isn’t there. It is marginal.
Why does it work with vacuum insulation panels that are already ten times thinner than conventional insulation but have a similar thermal performance as 2mm of this "paint"?
If that were the case, then vacuum panels wouldn’t work either, but they do.
I understand your point, but what if the properties of the "paint" allow heat from a heat source inside the room, such as infrared panels, to be better retained because it possibly distributes the heat more evenly and at the same time prevents cold from causing moisture penetration?
Even though it was 7°C (45°F) outside, the treated walls felt warm and dry to the touch. The untreated walls were wet and cold.
Something seems to be working, and the question is whether, for some cases, that might simply be enough.
The building’s walls are generally already very thick. Unfortunately, I didn’t ask exactly how thick, but from experience, I would say at least 60cm (24 inches). They already have their own insulation value. Adding the properties that the paint brings could be sufficient there. If you hung infrared heaters from the ceiling, maybe even more so.
For new construction, I consider it unsuitable compared to conventional insulation methods, but for such special buildings, it might be a good solution.
If that were the case, then vacuum panels wouldn’t work either, but they do.
I understand your point, but what if the properties of the "paint" allow heat from a heat source inside the room, such as infrared panels, to be better retained because it possibly distributes the heat more evenly and at the same time prevents cold from causing moisture penetration?
Even though it was 7°C (45°F) outside, the treated walls felt warm and dry to the touch. The untreated walls were wet and cold.
Something seems to be working, and the question is whether, for some cases, that might simply be enough.
The building’s walls are generally already very thick. Unfortunately, I didn’t ask exactly how thick, but from experience, I would say at least 60cm (24 inches). They already have their own insulation value. Adding the properties that the paint brings could be sufficient there. If you hung infrared heaters from the ceiling, maybe even more so.
For new construction, I consider it unsuitable compared to conventional insulation methods, but for such special buildings, it might be a good solution.
I’ll refer again to the example of aluminum die casting. The microsphere mixture used there reduces the oven’s radiant temperature by almost half, but more importantly, it helps maintain the temperature inside for a longer period, significantly increasing production.
But let’s keep it simple. I have the material at home. What would be a good experiment to conduct at home to test its effect?
But let’s keep it simple. I have the material at home. What would be a good experiment to conduct at home to test its effect?
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