ᐅ Creating a Plan for Insulating an Old Building – How to Proceed?
Created on: 30 Aug 2022 10:30
T
Tobibi
Hello,
I’m currently trying to make a plan for how to best improve the insulation of our house. I hope I can write everything down clearly so that some of you might be able to give me tips or suggest different approaches.
We bought a large house from 1982, about 200 sqm (2,150 sq ft) of living space. There is an approximately 6-year-old heat pump for heating and hot water, and a small wood stove in the living room. The ground floor and first floor have underfloor heating, while three basement rooms and a converted room above the garage have radiators. These radiators have a separate heating circuit with their own flow temperature and are rarely used, actually not at all in the basement.
In the main bedroom on the first floor, the previous owner opened the ceiling a few years ago, creating a high space that goes up to the roof ridge. The roof was insulated at that time, but I don’t have any documentation on how well. The rest of the house remains in its original condition, so basically uninsulated.
The walls are solid brick. The wooden windows have double glazing. Many windows and the front door do not seal well, allowing noticeable drafts at some windows. The top floor ceiling is not concrete but made of joists, covered underneath on the first floor with drywall and boards on top. Between the joists, there appears to be rock wool insulation packed in.
We have a 9 kWp photovoltaic system with battery storage, which the previous owner also installed. As it currently stands, the electricity from the photovoltaic system cannot be used for the heat pump, only for other household electricity. There is a separate meter with a heating electricity contract. Surplus electricity is fed back into the grid.
I recently received the heating electricity bill, showing that from March 2021 to March 2022—one full year—we used about 12,500 kWh for heating and hot water, which I find quite high. I definitely want to take action, especially since electricity prices are rising sharply. I’m not an experienced DIYer, but I can assist and have very helpful father and father-in-law who have a lot of skills. So, some things could be done ourselves, although time is always a factor.
A no-brainer seems to be replacing the window seals and adjusting them so they close tightly again. I am already in contact with a company for this.
Next, I’m thinking about insulating the roller shutter boxes. I would probably get a company to do this as well.
I’m considering insulating the basement ceiling with insulation boards that can be glued or fixed with plugs. If there are instructions available, we would rather do that ourselves. Or should I focus on insulating the top floor ceiling or installing insulation between the rafters? Or both? Probably not at the same time—maybe one this year and the other in a year or two. What would be the better order?
Would it make sense to modify the photovoltaic system so that the electricity can be used for the heat pump? I would have to hire an electrician for that, which costs money. But then the electricity would be usable for heating, and there would be only one basic fee. On the other hand, the yield in winter is not very good, and I would lose the cheaper heating electricity tariff. I once tracked generated, fed-in, self-used, and purchased electricity over a longer period and basically concluded that the conversion might not be worthwhile. But now electricity prices are rising dramatically.
Insulating the facade and/or installing new windows is honestly too expensive for me right now. On the other hand, we will need to have the entire exterior repainted next year or the year after. That costs several thousand when done professionally, which would almost offset the cost of external wall insulation. But presumably, these two should go together—insulation and new windows—because doing only one is not sensible and could cause problems with condensation.
So, that turned out to be quite a long message. I hope it’s understandable. How would you proceed? If I forgot anything, just ask. I might also add a follow-up later.
Best regards,
Tobi
I’m currently trying to make a plan for how to best improve the insulation of our house. I hope I can write everything down clearly so that some of you might be able to give me tips or suggest different approaches.
We bought a large house from 1982, about 200 sqm (2,150 sq ft) of living space. There is an approximately 6-year-old heat pump for heating and hot water, and a small wood stove in the living room. The ground floor and first floor have underfloor heating, while three basement rooms and a converted room above the garage have radiators. These radiators have a separate heating circuit with their own flow temperature and are rarely used, actually not at all in the basement.
In the main bedroom on the first floor, the previous owner opened the ceiling a few years ago, creating a high space that goes up to the roof ridge. The roof was insulated at that time, but I don’t have any documentation on how well. The rest of the house remains in its original condition, so basically uninsulated.
The walls are solid brick. The wooden windows have double glazing. Many windows and the front door do not seal well, allowing noticeable drafts at some windows. The top floor ceiling is not concrete but made of joists, covered underneath on the first floor with drywall and boards on top. Between the joists, there appears to be rock wool insulation packed in.
We have a 9 kWp photovoltaic system with battery storage, which the previous owner also installed. As it currently stands, the electricity from the photovoltaic system cannot be used for the heat pump, only for other household electricity. There is a separate meter with a heating electricity contract. Surplus electricity is fed back into the grid.
I recently received the heating electricity bill, showing that from March 2021 to March 2022—one full year—we used about 12,500 kWh for heating and hot water, which I find quite high. I definitely want to take action, especially since electricity prices are rising sharply. I’m not an experienced DIYer, but I can assist and have very helpful father and father-in-law who have a lot of skills. So, some things could be done ourselves, although time is always a factor.
A no-brainer seems to be replacing the window seals and adjusting them so they close tightly again. I am already in contact with a company for this.
Next, I’m thinking about insulating the roller shutter boxes. I would probably get a company to do this as well.
I’m considering insulating the basement ceiling with insulation boards that can be glued or fixed with plugs. If there are instructions available, we would rather do that ourselves. Or should I focus on insulating the top floor ceiling or installing insulation between the rafters? Or both? Probably not at the same time—maybe one this year and the other in a year or two. What would be the better order?
Would it make sense to modify the photovoltaic system so that the electricity can be used for the heat pump? I would have to hire an electrician for that, which costs money. But then the electricity would be usable for heating, and there would be only one basic fee. On the other hand, the yield in winter is not very good, and I would lose the cheaper heating electricity tariff. I once tracked generated, fed-in, self-used, and purchased electricity over a longer period and basically concluded that the conversion might not be worthwhile. But now electricity prices are rising dramatically.
Insulating the facade and/or installing new windows is honestly too expensive for me right now. On the other hand, we will need to have the entire exterior repainted next year or the year after. That costs several thousand when done professionally, which would almost offset the cost of external wall insulation. But presumably, these two should go together—insulation and new windows—because doing only one is not sensible and could cause problems with condensation.
So, that turned out to be quite a long message. I hope it’s understandable. How would you proceed? If I forgot anything, just ask. I might also add a follow-up later.
Best regards,
Tobi
N
nordanney22 May 2024 08:24MartinR. schrieb:
Why does this "paint" work with vacuum panels that are already ten times thinner than conventional insulation and have an insulation value similar to 2mm (0.08 inches)? Great question. If you compare the structure of vacuum insulation panels to particles dispersed in a liquid, you will realize that the few particles cannot have the same effect.
And again: use ubakus and calculate it yourself. The effect at that thickness can only be homeopathic. It is physically impossible to achieve the advertised performance. At least with just a millimeter.
MartinR. schrieb:
The walls of the building are generally already extremely thick. Unfortunately, I didn’t ask exactly how thick, but based on feeling, we are talking at least 60cm (24 inches). They already have their own insulation value. In case of doubt, actually no insulation value. In a concrete bunker with 2m (78 inches) thick walls, it is always cold. What thick walls have is thermal mass.
MartinR. schrieb:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but for a fire standard in ISO or EN, it doesn’t matter whether it is issued for construction, vehicles, or something else.That is not correct. The testing procedure is different, and so is the evaluation.
If there is no proof of normal combustibility according to DIN 4102 or EN 13501, the use is prohibited in Germany. Other European countries are very similar and almost everywhere proof according to EN 13501 is required. This is a very basic overview, as there are many additional small points that must be proven and considered in order to obtain a usability certificate.
The product data sheet already shows what the material can do… with a 1 mm (0.04 inch) layer thickness, we save 12% energy.
With 16 cm (6.3 inches) of expanded polystyrene, we achieve about 400%. To reach that level and meet the building energy regulation values, we need a layer thickness of approximately 33 mm (3.3 cm / 1.3 inches). Of course, this is a very rough calculation and reality usually looks a bit different, but it should be sufficient for illustration. The thicker the insulation layer, the smaller the incremental savings become.
At this point, it is no longer a miracle solution and also not economical. I assume prices similar to those from Adam (around 400 € per unit). That is why he came up with an absolutely unrealistic thermal transmittance coefficient to manage with 3 mm (0.12 inch).
With 16 cm (6.3 inches) of expanded polystyrene, we achieve about 400%. To reach that level and meet the building energy regulation values, we need a layer thickness of approximately 33 mm (3.3 cm / 1.3 inches). Of course, this is a very rough calculation and reality usually looks a bit different, but it should be sufficient for illustration. The thicker the insulation layer, the smaller the incremental savings become.
At this point, it is no longer a miracle solution and also not economical. I assume prices similar to those from Adam (around 400 € per unit). That is why he came up with an absolutely unrealistic thermal transmittance coefficient to manage with 3 mm (0.12 inch).
N
nordanney22 May 2024 10:28MartinR. schrieb:
I understand what you mean, but what if the properties of the "paint" are considered? One more point to consider. The "paint" is supposed to work with microspheres containing vacuum. Still, one cubic meter weighs about 480 kg (1060 lbs). So there is actually very little vacuum inside and a lot of water/solvent. A vacuum insulation panel with the same thermal insulation performance weighs only around 180 kg (397 lbs) — meaning it contains multiple times the amount of insulating vacuum. How can the paint then have the same effect?
Maybe it’s due to the test setup with a thickness of 1 mm (0.04 inches)? That can also be a way to manipulate the calculation.
Thank you, Cronos, for the illustration and calculation. However, I don’t seem to understand it. As I said, I’m not an expert.
1mm (0.04 inches) achieves 12% savings.
16cm (6.3 inches) of expanded polystyrene achieves 400% savings.
How do you arrive at this calculation? Or rather, how did you calculate it? What formula did you use? Again, I am not knowledgeable and am just trying to understand. So please explain it as if to a first grader, so I can understand how you reached the calculation, especially the 400% savings with expanded polystyrene.
On a different note, I researched vacuum-sealed glass microspheres, which are the main component of this paint, and at the same time I read that Hyundai and 3M are researching this to bring it to market this year as insulation for transporting hydrogen on ships.
The question, of course, is about the quantity and thickness involved.
It is conceivable that this could be uneconomical for homebuilders.
For now.
1mm (0.04 inches) achieves 12% savings.
16cm (6.3 inches) of expanded polystyrene achieves 400% savings.
How do you arrive at this calculation? Or rather, how did you calculate it? What formula did you use? Again, I am not knowledgeable and am just trying to understand. So please explain it as if to a first grader, so I can understand how you reached the calculation, especially the 400% savings with expanded polystyrene.
On a different note, I researched vacuum-sealed glass microspheres, which are the main component of this paint, and at the same time I read that Hyundai and 3M are researching this to bring it to market this year as insulation for transporting hydrogen on ships.
The question, of course, is about the quantity and thickness involved.
It is conceivable that this could be uneconomical for homebuilders.
For now.
Thank you for the comment. Good question, I will forward it and look forward to the manufacturer’s response.
I understand your doubts and partly share them, but I always wonder why so much effort is put in just to make money. Manufacturing halls, ordering microspheres from Kazakhstan, this and that.
Getting certificates issued (it’s not the wrong certificate but the correct one for the used product) — this certificate from ITB in the Czech Republic, which cooperates with the German TÜV, cost 3000€ because the client, a Polish railway company, required it.
To me, it seems easier to make money with hoaxes. Crypto pyramid schemes, etc.
Why go to such lengths?
I understand your doubts and partly share them, but I always wonder why so much effort is put in just to make money. Manufacturing halls, ordering microspheres from Kazakhstan, this and that.
Getting certificates issued (it’s not the wrong certificate but the correct one for the used product) — this certificate from ITB in the Czech Republic, which cooperates with the German TÜV, cost 3000€ because the client, a Polish railway company, required it.
To me, it seems easier to make money with hoaxes. Crypto pyramid schemes, etc.
Why go to such lengths?
Similar topics