ᐅ Renovating a 1960s House: Questionable Expert Recommendations?
Created on: 1 May 2021 12:16
S
schwalbe
Hello everyone,
I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.
My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.
My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.
Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
Current condition:
Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.
Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).
In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.
I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.
At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.
Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.
schwalbe
I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.
My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.
My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.
Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
- Basement: boiler room + oil storage, workshop, storage/pantry, laundry room with external stairs leading to the garden.
- Ground floor: entrance hall, toilet, small bathroom with bathtub, living room with a wood stove and patio door (garden access), dining room, kitchen.
- Upper floor: bathroom (also with wooden floor and carpet on top), 3 bedrooms.
- Attic, accessible via folding stairs: two small, identical rooms. I estimate about 6m² (65 sq ft) each; this area was not included in the stated living space (123m²). Above these rooms is about 0.8m (2.6 ft) of space up to the ridge.
Current condition:
- A leak in the workshop: the electrical line entry point is leaking. During heavy rain, about 2 buckets of water enter.
- Some basement ceilings are covered with old-looking insulation, which appears to be a thin, homemade foam polystyrene layer.
- Heating: oil heating system, installed in 1999. Gas connection is also available in the house.
- Electrical wiring is two-wire.
- Floors are wooden planks everywhere. Most rooms have carpets laid on top.
- Exterior walls according to the floor plan are 30cm (12 inches) brick with plaster on top.
- The gable roof was re-covered around 1980 (clay tiles) and has mineral wood fiber insulation between rafters. On the room side there is a "straw mat plaster" and wood paneling. No irregularities are visible from outside; the tiles are just a bit mossy. From inside, you can look directly under the ridge and see the beams with no signs of moisture or similar issues.
Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.
Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).
- He measured wall moisture in almost every room. Considering the house has been unoccupied and unventilated for two years, the values are good. Of course, there was more moisture in the workshop. He would fix the leak as follows: dig around the corner of the house where the damage is, about 2m (6.5 ft) in radius down to the basement floor level. Disconnect and pull back the electrical cable, drill a new hole, and seal it properly. He estimates the cost at around 5,000 EUR.
- Surprisingly, he would also install small radiators in the basement rooms to maintain basic heating and thus prevent mold. He said the heat isn’t lost but rises, though to me adding radiators in the basement seemed odd.
- Regarding the heating system, he recommends replacing the oil boiler with a gas condensing boiler, which would bring significant savings. I find that questionable, especially if the system runs at 70/50°C and nobody wonders why it doesn’t condense.
- For the exterior walls (minor plaster cracks mainly on the south side), he would simply apply a second layer of plaster to improve appearance, but would not add insulation. If I understand the local energy regulations correctly, this is permissible without mandatory insulation. Still, I have reservations about just plastering over old plaster and hoping it will hold. Is this common practice?
- As for the roof, he would also leave it as is. However, in my opinion, the energy regulations clearly require insulation of either the top floor ceiling or the roof if the minimum standards of DIN 4108-2 (2013) are not met. The old insulation in the roof likely will not comply.
- When replacing windows, he would not recommend the most airtight options but double glazing with a U-value between 1.3 and 1.5.
- He suggested completely renewing the electrical system and estimated costs of at least 20,000 EUR for this. Heating and water pipes would remain. We strongly doubt this, as we don’t feel comfortable keeping 60-year-old pipes, even if they could last another 20 years. Opening walls and floors in a fully occupied home later would be a nightmare.
In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.
I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.
At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.
Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.
schwalbe
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nordanney2 May 2021 16:41schwalbe schrieb:
The budget is neither tight nor generous; after purchasing the house, a maximum amount of €250,000 (approx. $270,000) would still be available. If you can’t fully renovate 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) for €250,000 (approx. $270,000) and still have the luxury car parked out front, then you’re doing something completely wrong. On top of that, you could invest about €320,000 (approx. $345,000), probably even more, if you aim for a KFW 55 energy efficiency standard. There are endless subsidies available, and you essentially get a nearly new building. I would have estimated €1,200 (approx. $1,300) per sqm (sq ft) for a full renovation.
N
nordanney2 May 2021 23:03schwalbe schrieb:
I will post a cost estimate in a few days, then I’m curious where there will still be room in the budget for a fancy car. That has to be included in the budget. I am currently doing a full renovation of a duplex (just over 200 sqm (2150 sq ft)) to meet the KfW55 energy standard. 120 sqm (1290 sq ft) are being upgraded to new build standards and 80 sqm (860 sq ft) of windows and heating are being replaced. Plus complete insulation. With your budget, a high-end AMG car could definitely fit in.
| Fix basement water infiltration | 6,000 |
| - | - |
| New water pipes | 15,000 |
| New heating pipes | 12,000 |
| New electrical wiring | 25,000 |
| Something with a new heating system | 15,000 |
| - | - |
| Scaffolding setup | 2,800 |
| Roof insulation above rafters, 160m² (1,722 sq ft) | 48,000 |
| Facade insulation, 160m² (1,722 sq ft) | 19,600 |
| New front door | 4,000 |
| Window replacement, approx. 30m² (323 sq ft) | 23,600 |
| Refurbish wood floors (remove carpet, sand, oil) | 6,900 |
| Baseboards, 180m (590 ft) | 2,300 |
| Interior wall painting, approx. 400m² (4,306 sq ft) | 12,000 |
| Interior ceiling painting, approx. 120m² (1,292 sq ft) | 3,400 |
| - | - |
| New kitchen | 22,000 |
| Kitchen appliances | 6,000 |
| New guest toilet | 5,000 |
| New downstairs bathroom | 12,000 |
| New upstairs bathroom | 25,000 |
| - | - |
| Contingency / unforeseen expenses | 27,000 |
| Project management | 10,000 |
So, here is our current breakdown. The total scope now comes to just under 300,000 because the surveyor estimated significantly higher costs for completely new piping than I did. I researched all other items online with the most up-to-date information I could find. When I found price ranges, I always took the upper limit and sometimes added extra margin.
While compiling this, I noticed some items are quite generously estimated. So far, I have hardly included any DIY work since I cannot yet accurately judge, for example, the condition of the walls (some are partly wood-paneled) and whether they will need fillers or other preparation first. Tasks like painting and refurbishing floors I feel confident about handling myself.
Since I keep hearing and seeing that construction costs are rising sharply, I prefer to budget on the high side and will be happy if the quotes come in significantly lower. The exterior area is not yet included either. There is a terrace (approx. 25m² / 269 sq ft) and paved paths around the house that will need attention in the medium term.
Also, this list is certainly not complete. For example, baseboards came to mind in connection with the floors, so I allocated a budget for those. There are plenty more of these “little things.”
We definitely don’t want luxury everywhere, but since we spend a lot of time at home, we do want a comfortable living environment. For example, in the kitchen, as an amateur cook, I would like a decent setup.
So, go ahead and tear me apart. Where’s the AMG?
N
nordanney3 May 2021 14:23Heating €27,000 is too expensive.
Electrical €25,000 is already a very decent electrical installation with many extras.
I hadn’t considered plumbing in the basement.
Roof insulation above the rafters? Why?
Windows €27,600 including front door are too expensive.
Wood floors are completely removed due to the new heating and electrical work, so no renovation needed ==> will buy new ones.
Kitchen is not part of the renovation = €28,000 no renovation costs (very luxurious kitchen despite inexpensive appliances).
Bathroom on the ground floor + guest toilet necessary when you have so little space?
Guest toilet €5,000 = luxury.
Water pipes €15,000 too expensive.
New screed is missing because of the underfloor heating.
There is a lot of contingency included and items that don’t belong to the renovation – just for the kitchen and unforeseen expenses, the (used) AMG covers it. 😉
A few real current figures from my renovation:
Electrical with standard equipment for 120 m² (sqm) about €15,000 (without “smart home,” but including electric roller shutters and 90 outlets for 120 m² (1290 sqft) + LAN) – electrician is almost finished.
24 windows including aluminum front door and shower/kitchen window door about €25,000 (49 m² (527 sqft) including electric roller shutters, WK2 hardware, and RAL installation, KfW 55 compliant, special exterior color) – installation is currently ongoing.
Water pipes for 120 m² (guest toilet and bathroom) about €6,000 (good quality Viega Raxofix pipes) – completed 2 months ago.
Electrical €25,000 is already a very decent electrical installation with many extras.
I hadn’t considered plumbing in the basement.
Roof insulation above the rafters? Why?
Windows €27,600 including front door are too expensive.
Wood floors are completely removed due to the new heating and electrical work, so no renovation needed ==> will buy new ones.
Kitchen is not part of the renovation = €28,000 no renovation costs (very luxurious kitchen despite inexpensive appliances).
Bathroom on the ground floor + guest toilet necessary when you have so little space?
Guest toilet €5,000 = luxury.
Water pipes €15,000 too expensive.
New screed is missing because of the underfloor heating.
There is a lot of contingency included and items that don’t belong to the renovation – just for the kitchen and unforeseen expenses, the (used) AMG covers it. 😉
A few real current figures from my renovation:
Electrical with standard equipment for 120 m² (sqm) about €15,000 (without “smart home,” but including electric roller shutters and 90 outlets for 120 m² (1290 sqft) + LAN) – electrician is almost finished.
24 windows including aluminum front door and shower/kitchen window door about €25,000 (49 m² (527 sqft) including electric roller shutters, WK2 hardware, and RAL installation, KfW 55 compliant, special exterior color) – installation is currently ongoing.
Water pipes for 120 m² (guest toilet and bathroom) about €6,000 (good quality Viega Raxofix pipes) – completed 2 months ago.
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