ᐅ Renovating a 1960s House: Questionable Expert Recommendations?
Created on: 1 May 2021 12:16
S
schwalbe
Hello everyone,
I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.
My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.
My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.
Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
Current condition:
Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.
Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).
In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.
I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.
At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.
Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.
schwalbe
I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.
My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.
My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.
Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
- Basement: boiler room + oil storage, workshop, storage/pantry, laundry room with external stairs leading to the garden.
- Ground floor: entrance hall, toilet, small bathroom with bathtub, living room with a wood stove and patio door (garden access), dining room, kitchen.
- Upper floor: bathroom (also with wooden floor and carpet on top), 3 bedrooms.
- Attic, accessible via folding stairs: two small, identical rooms. I estimate about 6m² (65 sq ft) each; this area was not included in the stated living space (123m²). Above these rooms is about 0.8m (2.6 ft) of space up to the ridge.
Current condition:
- A leak in the workshop: the electrical line entry point is leaking. During heavy rain, about 2 buckets of water enter.
- Some basement ceilings are covered with old-looking insulation, which appears to be a thin, homemade foam polystyrene layer.
- Heating: oil heating system, installed in 1999. Gas connection is also available in the house.
- Electrical wiring is two-wire.
- Floors are wooden planks everywhere. Most rooms have carpets laid on top.
- Exterior walls according to the floor plan are 30cm (12 inches) brick with plaster on top.
- The gable roof was re-covered around 1980 (clay tiles) and has mineral wood fiber insulation between rafters. On the room side there is a "straw mat plaster" and wood paneling. No irregularities are visible from outside; the tiles are just a bit mossy. From inside, you can look directly under the ridge and see the beams with no signs of moisture or similar issues.
Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.
Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).
- He measured wall moisture in almost every room. Considering the house has been unoccupied and unventilated for two years, the values are good. Of course, there was more moisture in the workshop. He would fix the leak as follows: dig around the corner of the house where the damage is, about 2m (6.5 ft) in radius down to the basement floor level. Disconnect and pull back the electrical cable, drill a new hole, and seal it properly. He estimates the cost at around 5,000 EUR.
- Surprisingly, he would also install small radiators in the basement rooms to maintain basic heating and thus prevent mold. He said the heat isn’t lost but rises, though to me adding radiators in the basement seemed odd.
- Regarding the heating system, he recommends replacing the oil boiler with a gas condensing boiler, which would bring significant savings. I find that questionable, especially if the system runs at 70/50°C and nobody wonders why it doesn’t condense.
- For the exterior walls (minor plaster cracks mainly on the south side), he would simply apply a second layer of plaster to improve appearance, but would not add insulation. If I understand the local energy regulations correctly, this is permissible without mandatory insulation. Still, I have reservations about just plastering over old plaster and hoping it will hold. Is this common practice?
- As for the roof, he would also leave it as is. However, in my opinion, the energy regulations clearly require insulation of either the top floor ceiling or the roof if the minimum standards of DIN 4108-2 (2013) are not met. The old insulation in the roof likely will not comply.
- When replacing windows, he would not recommend the most airtight options but double glazing with a U-value between 1.3 and 1.5.
- He suggested completely renewing the electrical system and estimated costs of at least 20,000 EUR for this. Heating and water pipes would remain. We strongly doubt this, as we don’t feel comfortable keeping 60-year-old pipes, even if they could last another 20 years. Opening walls and floors in a fully occupied home later would be a nightmare.
In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.
I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.
At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.
Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.
schwalbe
C
Christian_p29 Jun 2021 14:21Hello Nordanney, thank you for your assessment.
Exactly, it will be a two-family house, with the ground floor occupied by my parents and the extension plus the upper floor of the old building occupied by us. The upper floor in the old building will receive, just like the extension, all the necessary features (bathroom, access, kitchen connections, meters, etc.) to become a separate apartment in the future. Since the heating system is funded separately, hopefully the total budget for two housing units will be sufficient, as the ground floor is already largely renovated.
However, I believe I read somewhere (without having the source at hand) that the preparation (kitchen connections, meters, etc.) is enough to declare it as a separate apartment. Do you possibly have a reference to something "in writing"?
Thanks Christian
Exactly, it will be a two-family house, with the ground floor occupied by my parents and the extension plus the upper floor of the old building occupied by us. The upper floor in the old building will receive, just like the extension, all the necessary features (bathroom, access, kitchen connections, meters, etc.) to become a separate apartment in the future. Since the heating system is funded separately, hopefully the total budget for two housing units will be sufficient, as the ground floor is already largely renovated.
However, I believe I read somewhere (without having the source at hand) that the preparation (kitchen connections, meters, etc.) is enough to declare it as a separate apartment. Do you possibly have a reference to something "in writing"?
Thanks Christian
N
nordanney29 Jun 2021 14:31Christian_p schrieb:
However, I believe I read somewhere (without having the source at hand) that the preparations (kitchen connections, meters, etc.) are sufficient to classify it as a separate apartment. Do you possibly have any reference to something "in writing" here? I would need to look it up. It should basically mean: a self-contained residential unit with bathroom/WC and provisions for a kitchen. In other words, a genuine, lockable apartment, just like the one you would offer as a rental. Of course, having an actual kitchen installed is not required, nor does it have to be rented out. But it must be possible to do so at any time.
Christian_p schrieb:
However, I believe I read somewhere (without having the source at hand) that the preparation (kitchen connections, meters, etc.) is sufficient to classify it as a separate apartment. Do you possibly have a reference to anything in writing?Here is an excerpt from the information sheet "KFW Information for Experts on the Application of KfW Products Energy-Efficient Construction and Renovation":
C
Christian_p29 Jun 2021 22:06@schwalbe: Thanks for looking that up. This wording still leaves room for interpretation... but as I said, if two residential units plus heating for both units is not sufficient for me, then it would be too much anyway... ;-)
Yesterday, a roofing company came by to provide an initial quote for the roof renovation. The two "guys" (weighing 120 kg and 140 kg) first took a cigarette break after climbing out of their Seat Leon, and then immediately broke the wooden ladder that leads up to the roof. Overall, they were on site for just over half an hour.
For an insulation system installed above the rafters, including adjustment of the roof overhang, insulation of the dormer, and re-roofing with Frankfurter tiles, he quoted a price of 150 to 170 €/m² (around $160 to $180 per square yard). For a roof area of 200 m² (around 2,150 sq ft), that would come to approximately €34,000 (around $36,000). On top of that, there would be the cost for new gutters and the metal flashing around the chimney. He generally offers fixed prices and said he could hold this price until the end of the year if we want to have the roof done this year. A possible start date would be in September.
This is just a preliminary statement. On one hand, I’m a bit surprised that he could start so early; on the other hand, it’s good if work could begin soon. I just contacted a second roofer to come take a look at the house as well…
For an insulation system installed above the rafters, including adjustment of the roof overhang, insulation of the dormer, and re-roofing with Frankfurter tiles, he quoted a price of 150 to 170 €/m² (around $160 to $180 per square yard). For a roof area of 200 m² (around 2,150 sq ft), that would come to approximately €34,000 (around $36,000). On top of that, there would be the cost for new gutters and the metal flashing around the chimney. He generally offers fixed prices and said he could hold this price until the end of the year if we want to have the roof done this year. A possible start date would be in September.
This is just a preliminary statement. On one hand, I’m a bit surprised that he could start so early; on the other hand, it’s good if work could begin soon. I just contacted a second roofer to come take a look at the house as well…
So, here is a brief update.
Yesterday was the handover of the keys. From now on, we are responsible for the cabin, which mainly means regularly checking how much water is accumulating in the basement until further notice. The neighbor (who is also one of the three sellers) has kindly been taking care of this so far. Here is a picture of the situation:
The good old handyman (toolmaker) installed a metal funnel sealed with some kind of thick, sticky sealing compound. Originally, about 7m (23 feet) of hose was connected to the funnel, which he routed behind the workbench and led into the floor drain in the laundry room one room away. No one knows exactly how long this “worked.” It was probably about 20 to 30 years…
After that, a general contractor (GC) whom I had been recommended and who has had excellent reviews for over 10 years came by. It was a great conversation (finally! after dealing with so many inexperienced people on site…). Actually, the appointment yesterday was initially only to inspect the above-mentioned water ingress and get it sealed quickly so that no more water would come in for months. He brought his “basement specialist” with him. The specialist measured the moisture again. The values directly above the slab are high but normal for the building’s age. Just a few centimeters above that, the moisture level drops sharply.
Some exterior basement walls are in poor condition, especially where there is little air circulation (e.g., oil storage room, workshop behind the immovable workbenches):
A cheap solution with renovation plaster could be done, but it would have to be reapplied every 5 years as it is not a permanent fix. They recommended injection waterproofing, which has proven effective over decades. Of course, this costs a lot (20,000+), but it’s possible to focus on the most important rooms, renovate them completely, and then tackle the rest of the basement later.
Once the basement issue was settled, the basement specialist left. I had planned to insist that the GC take a look at the whole house while he was here. That wasn’t necessary because he thoroughly went through every room on his own, took notes, measurements, and made sketches to explain things to me. He was quite impressed with our ideas and the fact that we already have some knowledge and he doesn’t have to start from scratch.
We agreed that I will excavate manually around the water ingress area outside, and he will perform the targeted sealing on the electrical conduit. Also, we should remove the wallpaper and open up the floor as soon as possible to better assess the existing condition.
Meanwhile, we still have to clarify the whole application process (KfW, iSFP). I am still trying to understand who has to submit what where and when, and whether approval has to be waited for or if we can start “at our own risk.” Everyone agrees that BAFA is rather slow... 🙄
Anyway, I have a very good feeling about working with him and plan to carry out the whole project with him. A down-to-earth, experienced guy, as old as the house but still technically up to date. Patient, willing to explain, pragmatic. A small carpentry business specializing in complete renovations. They do the roof and drywall themselves; for other trades, there are reliable partners who are rigorously dropped if problems occur.
Over the weekend, I already dismantled some firewood from the stairwell…
And last but not least, a nice preface from a renovation book I’m currently reading:
Yesterday was the handover of the keys. From now on, we are responsible for the cabin, which mainly means regularly checking how much water is accumulating in the basement until further notice. The neighbor (who is also one of the three sellers) has kindly been taking care of this so far. Here is a picture of the situation:
The good old handyman (toolmaker) installed a metal funnel sealed with some kind of thick, sticky sealing compound. Originally, about 7m (23 feet) of hose was connected to the funnel, which he routed behind the workbench and led into the floor drain in the laundry room one room away. No one knows exactly how long this “worked.” It was probably about 20 to 30 years…
After that, a general contractor (GC) whom I had been recommended and who has had excellent reviews for over 10 years came by. It was a great conversation (finally! after dealing with so many inexperienced people on site…). Actually, the appointment yesterday was initially only to inspect the above-mentioned water ingress and get it sealed quickly so that no more water would come in for months. He brought his “basement specialist” with him. The specialist measured the moisture again. The values directly above the slab are high but normal for the building’s age. Just a few centimeters above that, the moisture level drops sharply.
Some exterior basement walls are in poor condition, especially where there is little air circulation (e.g., oil storage room, workshop behind the immovable workbenches):
A cheap solution with renovation plaster could be done, but it would have to be reapplied every 5 years as it is not a permanent fix. They recommended injection waterproofing, which has proven effective over decades. Of course, this costs a lot (20,000+), but it’s possible to focus on the most important rooms, renovate them completely, and then tackle the rest of the basement later.
Once the basement issue was settled, the basement specialist left. I had planned to insist that the GC take a look at the whole house while he was here. That wasn’t necessary because he thoroughly went through every room on his own, took notes, measurements, and made sketches to explain things to me. He was quite impressed with our ideas and the fact that we already have some knowledge and he doesn’t have to start from scratch.
We agreed that I will excavate manually around the water ingress area outside, and he will perform the targeted sealing on the electrical conduit. Also, we should remove the wallpaper and open up the floor as soon as possible to better assess the existing condition.
Meanwhile, we still have to clarify the whole application process (KfW, iSFP). I am still trying to understand who has to submit what where and when, and whether approval has to be waited for or if we can start “at our own risk.” Everyone agrees that BAFA is rather slow... 🙄
Anyway, I have a very good feeling about working with him and plan to carry out the whole project with him. A down-to-earth, experienced guy, as old as the house but still technically up to date. Patient, willing to explain, pragmatic. A small carpentry business specializing in complete renovations. They do the roof and drywall themselves; for other trades, there are reliable partners who are rigorously dropped if problems occur.
Over the weekend, I already dismantled some firewood from the stairwell…
And last but not least, a nice preface from a renovation book I’m currently reading:
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