ᐅ Renovating a 1960s House: Questionable Expert Recommendations?

Created on: 1 May 2021 12:16
S
schwalbe
Hello everyone,

I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.

My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.

My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.

Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
  • Basement: boiler room + oil storage, workshop, storage/pantry, laundry room with external stairs leading to the garden.
  • Ground floor: entrance hall, toilet, small bathroom with bathtub, living room with a wood stove and patio door (garden access), dining room, kitchen.
  • Upper floor: bathroom (also with wooden floor and carpet on top), 3 bedrooms.
  • Attic, accessible via folding stairs: two small, identical rooms. I estimate about 6m² (65 sq ft) each; this area was not included in the stated living space (123m²). Above these rooms is about 0.8m (2.6 ft) of space up to the ridge.

Current condition:
  • A leak in the workshop: the electrical line entry point is leaking. During heavy rain, about 2 buckets of water enter.
  • Some basement ceilings are covered with old-looking insulation, which appears to be a thin, homemade foam polystyrene layer.
  • Heating: oil heating system, installed in 1999. Gas connection is also available in the house.
  • Electrical wiring is two-wire.
  • Floors are wooden planks everywhere. Most rooms have carpets laid on top.
  • Exterior walls according to the floor plan are 30cm (12 inches) brick with plaster on top.
  • The gable roof was re-covered around 1980 (clay tiles) and has mineral wood fiber insulation between rafters. On the room side there is a "straw mat plaster" and wood paneling. No irregularities are visible from outside; the tiles are just a bit mossy. From inside, you can look directly under the ridge and see the beams with no signs of moisture or similar issues.

Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.

Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).

  • He measured wall moisture in almost every room. Considering the house has been unoccupied and unventilated for two years, the values are good. Of course, there was more moisture in the workshop. He would fix the leak as follows: dig around the corner of the house where the damage is, about 2m (6.5 ft) in radius down to the basement floor level. Disconnect and pull back the electrical cable, drill a new hole, and seal it properly. He estimates the cost at around 5,000 EUR.
  • Surprisingly, he would also install small radiators in the basement rooms to maintain basic heating and thus prevent mold. He said the heat isn’t lost but rises, though to me adding radiators in the basement seemed odd.
  • Regarding the heating system, he recommends replacing the oil boiler with a gas condensing boiler, which would bring significant savings. I find that questionable, especially if the system runs at 70/50°C and nobody wonders why it doesn’t condense.
  • For the exterior walls (minor plaster cracks mainly on the south side), he would simply apply a second layer of plaster to improve appearance, but would not add insulation. If I understand the local energy regulations correctly, this is permissible without mandatory insulation. Still, I have reservations about just plastering over old plaster and hoping it will hold. Is this common practice?
  • As for the roof, he would also leave it as is. However, in my opinion, the energy regulations clearly require insulation of either the top floor ceiling or the roof if the minimum standards of DIN 4108-2 (2013) are not met. The old insulation in the roof likely will not comply.
  • When replacing windows, he would not recommend the most airtight options but double glazing with a U-value between 1.3 and 1.5.
  • He suggested completely renewing the electrical system and estimated costs of at least 20,000 EUR for this. Heating and water pipes would remain. We strongly doubt this, as we don’t feel comfortable keeping 60-year-old pipes, even if they could last another 20 years. Opening walls and floors in a fully occupied home later would be a nightmare.

In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.

I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.

At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.

Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.

schwalbe
schwalbe23 Jun 2021 12:39
11ant schrieb:

I would first look for an experienced architect; they usually know reliable contractors.
Yes, we already have one in contact. She is currently working on an initial concept.
11ant schrieb:

Then show us a survey. What kind of plans are available in the building file?

Floor plan of an apartment with living room, kitchen, dining room, hallway, and terrace.

Ground floor: The guest toilet is planned to be converted into a cloakroom. To create a separate entrance for the second (upper) residential unit, we are considering locking the door from the hallway to the bathroom (if that is sufficient, otherwise completely sealing it off) and connecting the living room to the bathroom. However, there is also a wood-burning stove in the corner of the living room (see fireplace in bathroom corner), so this might look a bit cramped and obviously would be very impractical. The kitchen door to the hallway could theoretically also be locked, with the kitchen accessed through the dining room. We’ll see. It would be great to get a double subsidy, but on the other hand, the idea of having an extra, unused door just for the sake of funding seems a bit odd. Maybe it can be built and later removed or “hidden”...

Floor plan of a house with several rooms, staircase, doors, and measurements.

First floor: "Room 3" is the bathroom. In the master bedroom, we would move the door about 1m (3 feet) into the room to use the gained space for a (steep) staircase up to the already converted attic space. Currently, the attic is accessed via a folding ladder in the hallway (dashed area), which is in the way.

Floor plan of a rectangular room with interior walls, doors, and measurements in meters.

Attic
11ant23 Jun 2021 13:41
This already looks like a slightly upscale standard. A wall thickness of 30cm (12 inches) was considered somewhat avant-garde at the time, and all interior walls except for the knee walls are at least one brick thick. The interior wall parallel to the gable in the bedroom even suggests the possibility of a concrete ceiling over the ground floor. Is there also a basement floor plan and cross sections available?
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
schwalbe23 Jun 2021 14:18
Yes, we were also told that the build quality was quite good for the year it was constructed, and the term "architect-designed house" was mentioned... I also really like the large windows, especially in the living and dining areas, which I haven't really seen in such old buildings before.


Wood-clad facade of a balcony with three windows; open doorway to the living room.

Garden with wooden deck, railing and stairs leading to the house; lantern, large windows, tree in the foreground.


What do you mean by "one brick thick wall"? Sorry, I’m not familiar with construction jargon 🙂

Here is the basement floor plan and the only cross-section available. So, these basically cover all the documents we have for the house 😉
The cross-section mentions a wooden beam ceiling above the ground floor. But that might not mean much since the drawings are not exactly accurate (for example, the pantry was never built, and there is a bathroom upstairs instead of a third room...)


Basement floor plan with staircase in the center and multiple basement rooms on the left and right.

Cross-section of a multi-story house with basement, staircase, roof structure, and chimney.
RomeoZwo23 Jun 2021 16:32
Turning it into two separate living units is quite a hassle, isn't it? Otherwise, you could convert room 3 into a bathroom, and it would still be a nice, modern floor plan even today.
11ant23 Jun 2021 21:00
Second bathrooms were often added later, and partition walls between kitchens and pantries were frequently removed. Kopf refers to the stone in the same way as with the table: the narrow side. Houses from this period often had walls between the toilet and bathroom made of vertically positioned bricks (5 or 7 cm (2 or 3 inches) thick) or plasterboard walls. A concrete ceiling above the ground floor would be unusual for this time and house size, although I could be mistaken and the drawing might be correct. I inferred this from the wall between the master bedroom and room 2, which appears to be masonry. However, such a wall would not be supported by the beam ceiling. It is likely instead that it rests on a steel beam spanning between the load-bearing interior wall and the masonry section next to the patio door.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
L
L.o.n.a
28 Jun 2021 22:00
Congratulations on the house purchase, Schwalbe!
I’m also new here and have been following this thread for a few weeks because we are planning a similar project. Our property (a semi-detached house, currently firmly reserved) is still far from being up to date in terms of energy efficiency and features.
For a viewing, we also had to quickly find a surveyor, who was a bit like yours in terms of attitude. We don’t want to rush the house into the future at all costs, but we also don’t want a permanent construction site lasting for many years.
So, if possible, we’re thinking of a bigger, comprehensive renovation funded by a KfW program. At least we’ve already found an energy consultant who has done this kind of work quite often.

However, I’m wondering—due to recent developments 😉—how you managed the financing of the project?
Because there is a big difference between asking the bank for an additional $150K or $300K (depending on conversion) for the renovation during the mortgage approval when it’s not even clear yet how the renovation will be carried out or what the scope will be...
Go all in?