ᐅ Renovating a 1960s House: Questionable Expert Recommendations?

Created on: 1 May 2021 12:16
S
schwalbe
Hello everyone,

I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.

My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.

My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.

Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
  • Basement: boiler room + oil storage, workshop, storage/pantry, laundry room with external stairs leading to the garden.
  • Ground floor: entrance hall, toilet, small bathroom with bathtub, living room with a wood stove and patio door (garden access), dining room, kitchen.
  • Upper floor: bathroom (also with wooden floor and carpet on top), 3 bedrooms.
  • Attic, accessible via folding stairs: two small, identical rooms. I estimate about 6m² (65 sq ft) each; this area was not included in the stated living space (123m²). Above these rooms is about 0.8m (2.6 ft) of space up to the ridge.

Current condition:
  • A leak in the workshop: the electrical line entry point is leaking. During heavy rain, about 2 buckets of water enter.
  • Some basement ceilings are covered with old-looking insulation, which appears to be a thin, homemade foam polystyrene layer.
  • Heating: oil heating system, installed in 1999. Gas connection is also available in the house.
  • Electrical wiring is two-wire.
  • Floors are wooden planks everywhere. Most rooms have carpets laid on top.
  • Exterior walls according to the floor plan are 30cm (12 inches) brick with plaster on top.
  • The gable roof was re-covered around 1980 (clay tiles) and has mineral wood fiber insulation between rafters. On the room side there is a "straw mat plaster" and wood paneling. No irregularities are visible from outside; the tiles are just a bit mossy. From inside, you can look directly under the ridge and see the beams with no signs of moisture or similar issues.

Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.

Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).

  • He measured wall moisture in almost every room. Considering the house has been unoccupied and unventilated for two years, the values are good. Of course, there was more moisture in the workshop. He would fix the leak as follows: dig around the corner of the house where the damage is, about 2m (6.5 ft) in radius down to the basement floor level. Disconnect and pull back the electrical cable, drill a new hole, and seal it properly. He estimates the cost at around 5,000 EUR.
  • Surprisingly, he would also install small radiators in the basement rooms to maintain basic heating and thus prevent mold. He said the heat isn’t lost but rises, though to me adding radiators in the basement seemed odd.
  • Regarding the heating system, he recommends replacing the oil boiler with a gas condensing boiler, which would bring significant savings. I find that questionable, especially if the system runs at 70/50°C and nobody wonders why it doesn’t condense.
  • For the exterior walls (minor plaster cracks mainly on the south side), he would simply apply a second layer of plaster to improve appearance, but would not add insulation. If I understand the local energy regulations correctly, this is permissible without mandatory insulation. Still, I have reservations about just plastering over old plaster and hoping it will hold. Is this common practice?
  • As for the roof, he would also leave it as is. However, in my opinion, the energy regulations clearly require insulation of either the top floor ceiling or the roof if the minimum standards of DIN 4108-2 (2013) are not met. The old insulation in the roof likely will not comply.
  • When replacing windows, he would not recommend the most airtight options but double glazing with a U-value between 1.3 and 1.5.
  • He suggested completely renewing the electrical system and estimated costs of at least 20,000 EUR for this. Heating and water pipes would remain. We strongly doubt this, as we don’t feel comfortable keeping 60-year-old pipes, even if they could last another 20 years. Opening walls and floors in a fully occupied home later would be a nightmare.

In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.

I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.

At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.

Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.

schwalbe
D
Deliverer
18 Oct 2021 09:15
The Renewable Energy Act clearly regulates this. A guaranteed feed-in tariff is provided for 20 years from the start of operation. That does not change.

I’m not quite sure which loophole you’re referring to. This is a subsidy, not some secret deal known only to tax advisors. It has been available for over 20 years, and anyone with a roof can use it. Those who took advantage of it several years ago made a lot of money. Nowadays, you don’t get rich, but it is still attractive enough that, above a certain size, it can even make sense to fully finance the photovoltaic system externally. The grid operator repays the loan, and you use your own green electricity. You’re just offering your roof for a good cause. It’s a win-win-win. Or something like that.

In addition, you can enter electricity marketing at any time. Currently, you would earn more money that way than with the standard feed-in tariff. So the only risk exists if we lose our rule of law AND, at the same time, electricity becomes infinitely cheap. In my opinion, those two cannot happen simultaneously.
schwalbe20 Oct 2021 20:25
First of all: Since this will probably become a kind of construction diary here, could one of the mods please remove the addition "Questionable Inspector Recommendations" from the thread title? Thanks!
Rumbi441 schrieb:

Commissioning work without first creating a scope of work and fixed cost estimate... you either have enormous trust or you are careless.
Sure, I just tell the construction company, “Just do it how you think is best, I’ll pay anyway.”
Ysop*** schrieb:

I believe that the planning contract doesn’t necessarily mean that the entire execution has already been commissioned. Here, planning itself already involves costs as well as preparing an offer. But maybe I misunderstood.
No, you understood correctly, that’s how it is.
Tassimat schrieb:

Ah, something like photovoltaics in winter?
Photovoltaics in winter aren’t as bad as you might think. Efficiency is better at low temperatures, and on a sunny winter day you get more output than in midsummer. In summer, you have (pollen) dust and other dirt on the panels if it hasn’t rained for weeks, which also reduces yield. With a sufficient roof pitch (mine is almost 50°), snow doesn’t stay but slides off quickly. If needed, you just go up on the roof and sweep off any snow frozen onto the top edges of the modules.

Regarding the photovoltaic nonsense from @Rumbi441, I’ll say nothing because it really hurts to read. When you don’t know what you’re talking about... how was that again? Thanks to @Deliverer for the patience and effort to explain the basics.

We were busy over the weekend and shoveled out nearly eight tons of sand from the ground floor. First, of course, we removed the floorboards and, due to the lack of a second container (my fault), initially threw everything into the garden. So yesterday I had to move all that into the then-ordered container. Those who don’t have it in their head, have it in their arms 😀

The house now smells for the first time not of the previous owner, but of a construction site, which is somehow a special moment for me. Next weekend we’ll start working on the garden.


Renovation room: exposed wooden floor on the left, sand floor with footprints on the right

Renovation room: empty room, open windows, rough walls, radiator, wooden door.

Stainless steel pot with white sausages in water on portable gas stove; beer bottle next to it outdoors.



Room in renovation condition with sand floor, wheelbarrow, building materials and three windows.

Abandoned hallway of a house in need of renovation, dusty, window at the end.

Garden construction site: stack of wooden battens, ramp leading to sand in trailer, house in background.
schwalbe20 Oct 2021 20:54
Myrna_Loy schrieb:

Why do you want to remove the loose fill from the floors? Old loose fill often provides better vibration and sound insulation than some newer insulation materials.
We need the space for thermal insulation against the cold basement (in the basement level, no space due to 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in) ceiling height) and for the underfloor heating.