ᐅ Water/washing machine, gray water reuse/hot water from domestic hot water/heating geothermal heat pump
Created on: 15 May 2013 12:14
M
MörtelkännchenM
Mörtelkännchen15 May 2013 12:14Hello,
a quick question about washing machines that use warm or hot water.
We are debating whether to use the soft water from the rainwater cistern (I am very familiar with this topic professionally and know from numerous laboratory tests how high-quality, pure, and better rainwater is for washing—before any skeptics or critics comment on this *g*) which saves water, reduces repair and electricity costs due to scale-free water, is gentler on laundry and cleans better, or to draw warm water for the washing machine from the heating system’s warm water (geothermal heat pump).
Considering the costs and economics of consumption, does anyone have experience with which option is more worthwhile or if it is generally reasonable to put that load on the hot water system? I think, if so, washing should only be done during the day when warm water use for the household members is low.
It would be great if anyone has insights on this. The rainwater system itself is not in question, as it will be installed anyway and at least used for toilets and the garden, so only the additional pipe to the washing machine would have to be considered.
a quick question about washing machines that use warm or hot water.
We are debating whether to use the soft water from the rainwater cistern (I am very familiar with this topic professionally and know from numerous laboratory tests how high-quality, pure, and better rainwater is for washing—before any skeptics or critics comment on this *g*) which saves water, reduces repair and electricity costs due to scale-free water, is gentler on laundry and cleans better, or to draw warm water for the washing machine from the heating system’s warm water (geothermal heat pump).
Considering the costs and economics of consumption, does anyone have experience with which option is more worthwhile or if it is generally reasonable to put that load on the hot water system? I think, if so, washing should only be done during the day when warm water use for the household members is low.
It would be great if anyone has insights on this. The rainwater system itself is not in question, as it will be installed anyway and at least used for toilets and the garden, so only the additional pipe to the washing machine would have to be considered.
P
perlenmann15 May 2013 13:54About the hot water: The washing machine also rinses with cold water, so if you always add hot water, the savings disappear. Unless you use a washing machine with both cold and hot water connections. However, consider that the extra cost for that might be spent on electricity anyway.
For the dishwasher, it’s even the case that certain wash cycles require cold water because of protein.
For the dishwasher, it’s even the case that certain wash cycles require cold water because of protein.
M
Mörtelkännchen15 May 2013 14:10That is true, you would need a different washing machine. It costs about 200 euros more (at least the one I have). It would take around 10 years to break even...
For the dishwasher, this is not possible anyway, since rainwater is not allowed for washing dishes, just like with showering.
For the dishwasher, this is not possible anyway, since rainwater is not allowed for washing dishes, just like with showering.
B
Bauexperte16 May 2013 08:51Mörtelkännchen schrieb:
"I have extensive professional experience with this topic and know from numerous laboratory tests how high-quality, pure, and better rainwater is for washing before any skeptics or opponents want to comment *g*" [...] it is gentler on laundry and cleans fresher I am not a skeptic but a practitioner, and I can report from our daily practice that some laboratory-related details regarding the clarification of rainwater seem to be missing in your explanations.
Where our clients have decided to connect their washing machines to the rainwater system, water treatment measures were implemented quite soon after moving into the new home because the laundry did not come out of the drum with the desired result. On the contrary, it became dull faster than when using tap water.
Based on this, we recommend using the rainwater system exclusively for toilets and garden irrigation.
Best regards, Bauexperte
M
Mörtelkännchen16 May 2013 09:57I was a member of the Professional Association for Operational and Rainwater Use in Darmstadt and during my time as a field representative for rainwater use, wastewater treatment, and separation technology at a medium-sized precast concrete plant manufacturer, I worked closely with others in the field. For example, I was involved in the process leading up to the court ruling on March 31, 2010 (Case No.: BVerwG8 C 16.08). Therefore, I am familiar with the laboratory tests, the results, and of course the INSTALLATION ERRORS made by the installer, the homeowner, or the planning, which often leads to the conclusion: “This is no good.” The main mistake is that NO cleaning is done BEFORE the storage tank. Properly planned systems deliver water quality that is 99% better than required. The formation of bacteria in laundry has been proven to be at the same low level as laundry washed with tap water.
The best example was a homeowner who connected a flat roof system, which, based on basic principles, should never be done (and is not allowed anyway).
Of course, it depends on the rainwater quality, contamination, and the cleaning process. Untreated rainwater almost NEVER works 98% of the time. I have seen several systems without filters or cleaning stages, or without floating water intake, which naturally causes dirt to end up in the laundry. What hardly anyone considers is that when a wood-burning stove is operated, whether in the house itself or one of the neighbors’, soot settles on the roof surface (which you cannot see and no one will say is there), and this soot can get into the cistern. If the cleaning technology is poorly designed (which is neither expensive nor complicated), it can lead to gray laundry. Gray laundry does not result from poor water quality or from everyday dust or leaf washout. Additionally, the detergent used must be suitable for this purpose, as not every detergent is compatible with rainwater. Usually, it’s a standard detergent that is inexpensive or we use a very expensive one, but it is chosen for ecological reasons because it is biodegradable and a 1 kg (2.2 lbs) container lasts over one year.
A colleague of mine once had gray laundry too, because his wife had put a heavily soiled black cleaning cloth in the laundry. In that case, even the best water won’t help.
The best example was a homeowner who connected a flat roof system, which, based on basic principles, should never be done (and is not allowed anyway).
Of course, it depends on the rainwater quality, contamination, and the cleaning process. Untreated rainwater almost NEVER works 98% of the time. I have seen several systems without filters or cleaning stages, or without floating water intake, which naturally causes dirt to end up in the laundry. What hardly anyone considers is that when a wood-burning stove is operated, whether in the house itself or one of the neighbors’, soot settles on the roof surface (which you cannot see and no one will say is there), and this soot can get into the cistern. If the cleaning technology is poorly designed (which is neither expensive nor complicated), it can lead to gray laundry. Gray laundry does not result from poor water quality or from everyday dust or leaf washout. Additionally, the detergent used must be suitable for this purpose, as not every detergent is compatible with rainwater. Usually, it’s a standard detergent that is inexpensive or we use a very expensive one, but it is chosen for ecological reasons because it is biodegradable and a 1 kg (2.2 lbs) container lasts over one year.
A colleague of mine once had gray laundry too, because his wife had put a heavily soiled black cleaning cloth in the laundry. In that case, even the best water won’t help.
B
Bauexperte16 May 2013 10:36Hello,
Well water is a different matter. By the way, this ruling points out that officials shouldn’t always rely on their tunnel vision.
Again – well water is a completely different issue. Naturally, microbial growth must be assessed differently. Furthermore, I want to clarify that we are not low-cost providers and that the system was properly planned. I have simply shared my experience; if you prefer connecting directly to the washing machine, I won’t try to stop you.
Recently, I also had pink laundry because a red sweater ended up in the light-colored wash; ecological and/or expensive detergents did not help either, and I wash with tap water.
Regards, Bauexperte
Mörtelkännchen schrieb:
.... and was, for example, also involved in the court ruling on March 31, 2010 (Case No.: BVerwG8 C 16.08).
Well water is a different matter. By the way, this ruling points out that officials shouldn’t always rely on their tunnel vision.
Mörtelkännchen schrieb:
Therefore, I am familiar with the laboratory tests, the results, and of course the ERRORS made during installation by the installer, the homeowner, or the planner, which often leads to complaints like “This is useless.” The biggest mistake is that NO cleaning is done BEFORE the storage tank. Properly planned systems deliver water quality that is 99% better than required. Microbial growth on laundry was proven to be on the same low level as laundry washed with drinking water.
Again – well water is a completely different issue. Naturally, microbial growth must be assessed differently. Furthermore, I want to clarify that we are not low-cost providers and that the system was properly planned. I have simply shared my experience; if you prefer connecting directly to the washing machine, I won’t try to stop you.
Mörtelkännchen schrieb:
By the way, a colleague once had gray laundry because his wife washed a heavily soiled black cleaning cloth with it – no water quality can fix that.
Recently, I also had pink laundry because a red sweater ended up in the light-colored wash; ecological and/or expensive detergents did not help either, and I wash with tap water.
Regards, Bauexperte
Similar topics