Hello everyone!
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
I believe there will never be a perfect solution that fits everyone, as tastes are just too different 😀
But these gas heaters aren’t actually that rare (they provide both hot water AND heating, so they kick on loudly every 2 minutes)… I think you’ll find them in almost every social housing unit. At least in every one I’ve lived in since my first apartment at 18. After that, I had seven more places, all with those awful, super ugly, and trouble-prone units. Oh, and what I forgot to mention—besides the gas explosions, there are constant reports of carbon monoxide poisoning due to faulty gas boilers… no thanks, not for me 😉
However, I admit I did briefly consider it at first when we were deciding on heating. We didn’t have a gas connection here, but two things made me decide against it:
- There is no Bafa subsidy for gas water heating systems
- The required share of renewable energy for our KfW Efficiency House 100 would have been impossible to achieve with gas.
Oops, two more arguments against gas 😀
Just for completeness and to inform the original poster 🙂
But these gas heaters aren’t actually that rare (they provide both hot water AND heating, so they kick on loudly every 2 minutes)… I think you’ll find them in almost every social housing unit. At least in every one I’ve lived in since my first apartment at 18. After that, I had seven more places, all with those awful, super ugly, and trouble-prone units. Oh, and what I forgot to mention—besides the gas explosions, there are constant reports of carbon monoxide poisoning due to faulty gas boilers… no thanks, not for me 😉
However, I admit I did briefly consider it at first when we were deciding on heating. We didn’t have a gas connection here, but two things made me decide against it:
- There is no Bafa subsidy for gas water heating systems
- The required share of renewable energy for our KfW Efficiency House 100 would have been impossible to achieve with gas.
Oops, two more arguments against gas 😀
Just for completeness and to inform the original poster 🙂
C
Caspar202011 May 2016 10:14In our current house, we have a gas condensing boiler, and in our future house, there will be a gas condensing boiler with solar thermal (ST) support.
Regarding the topic of gas heaters constantly exploding:
According to the DVGW gas damage statistics, the number of reportable incidents at customer installations has steadily decreased since 1981. In the past 15 years, there have been 1–2 accidents per one million natural gas-heated households per year.
And 56% of these are caused by customer faults; either due to DIY mistakes or, in rare cases, by the installer.
However, installers working on heat pumps can also make serious errors. Fires caused by insufficient electrical installations also occur.
So the best option would be a house without electricity, gas, or open flames. 😎
And if you have a gas heating system, it’s advisable to install a CO detector near the heating unit for safety.
Regarding the topic of gas heaters constantly exploding:
According to the DVGW gas damage statistics, the number of reportable incidents at customer installations has steadily decreased since 1981. In the past 15 years, there have been 1–2 accidents per one million natural gas-heated households per year.
And 56% of these are caused by customer faults; either due to DIY mistakes or, in rare cases, by the installer.
However, installers working on heat pumps can also make serious errors. Fires caused by insufficient electrical installations also occur.
So the best option would be a house without electricity, gas, or open flames. 😎
And if you have a gas heating system, it’s advisable to install a CO detector near the heating unit for safety.
M
mvossmail11 May 2016 10:41I find all of this really fascinating. For us, this whole project came out of nowhere and represents a huge opportunity. However, it also means that we haven’t even asked ourselves many questions yet.
For example, I hadn’t yet questioned the use of gas—but there are now quite viable, mostly automated pellet heating solutions available. Geothermal energy could also become interesting. I’m curious to see what the energy consultant suggests... ;-)
Most likely, the project could fail due to emotional reasons... Do we really want to live right at the edge of the forest, far out in the countryside? It has decent connections, and the nearby villages aren’t just made up of farms—but it’s still very rural.
Well, we’re excited! Let’s see what the structural engineer has to say...
For example, I hadn’t yet questioned the use of gas—but there are now quite viable, mostly automated pellet heating solutions available. Geothermal energy could also become interesting. I’m curious to see what the energy consultant suggests... ;-)
Most likely, the project could fail due to emotional reasons... Do we really want to live right at the edge of the forest, far out in the countryside? It has decent connections, and the nearby villages aren’t just made up of farms—but it’s still very rural.
Well, we’re excited! Let’s see what the structural engineer has to say...
B
Bauexperte11 May 2016 12:03Hello,
That’s a question no one here can answer. Even though I haven’t read all posts, NRW is large. Prices in Münster differ from those in Düsseldorf. Also, no one knows the exact condition of the property.
Once you’ve done enough reading, attend the property inspection with an expert. Wait for their summary and then recalculate; maybe by then you will also know the building authority’s response to your attic plans.
Having a reliable craftsman is always helpful and comforting, but entrusting them with the complete renovation of an existing property is risky.
You should also urgently clarify your available budget; due to changes in regulations since 21.3.2016, there’s a lot of documentation you will need to provide. It’s not that simple to get a loan for renovating an existing property; apart from the fact that banks evaluate it differently than a new build. But smarter users will probably add more on this if they haven’t already.
Best regards, Bauexperte
mvossmail schrieb:Concrete? Are you sure?
The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120sqm (1290 sqft) over 2 floors.
mvossmail schrieb:Again, really _including_ backlog of renovations?
An expert report was commissioned, and the value of the house (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) was estimated at €80,000 - but the basic structure is completely fine.
mvossmail schrieb:Is the sun shining tomorrow from 7:30 to 8:00 or rather over the Pentecost weekend?
Question 1: Will €150,000 be enough for renovation and extension?
That’s a question no one here can answer. Even though I haven’t read all posts, NRW is large. Prices in Münster differ from those in Düsseldorf. Also, no one knows the exact condition of the property.
mvossmail schrieb:If that’s even allowed. Have you checked with the building authority / planning office?
(we want to add attic extensions to the second floor to increase the living area
mvossmail schrieb:Since we are currently renovating 2 single-family houses, I can tell you that the "before" estimate is always overtaken by the "after." _Before_, a layperson estimates the costs; _after_, reality hits.
My assessment would be:
.....
Once you’ve done enough reading, attend the property inspection with an expert. Wait for their summary and then recalculate; maybe by then you will also know the building authority’s response to your attic plans.
mvossmail schrieb:The premise of the question is wrong. It’s not about what “people” do nowadays, but about assessing the building fabric and deciding on renovation measures accordingly: the heating system must fit the overall concept of the single-family house. If it doesn’t, it quickly becomes a money pit!
Question 2: What is the current approach to energy efficiency when renovating an old building?
mvossmail schrieb:I feared that...
... have a great craftsman on hand who has already done many good jobs at my parents’ and siblings’ houses. The cost is around €35/hour.
Having a reliable craftsman is always helpful and comforting, but entrusting them with the complete renovation of an existing property is risky.
mvossmail schrieb:Wait, as mentioned above, first see the outcome of your talks with the building authority and the expert, then decide together what you can do, what the recommended craftsman will do, and what should definitely be assigned to experienced contractors. Expert construction supervision is essential.
Windows, facade, roof we probably can’t do on our own. Also, the outdoor areas would partly need professional hands – there are around 200-300sqm (2150-3230 sqft) of asphalt that really should be removed...
You should also urgently clarify your available budget; due to changes in regulations since 21.3.2016, there’s a lot of documentation you will need to provide. It’s not that simple to get a loan for renovating an existing property; apart from the fact that banks evaluate it differently than a new build. But smarter users will probably add more on this if they haven’t already.
Best regards, Bauexperte
M
mvossmail11 May 2016 12:10Bauexperte schrieb:
I feared as much...
Having this type of tradesperson on hand is always helpful and good to know; but entrusting them with the renovation of an existing property is risky.Don’t worry, in the end they will only be doing some drywall and preliminary electrical work. ;-) The whole project will be managed properly.
Bauexperte schrieb:
You should also urgently clarify your available budget; regarding changes in regulations since March 21, 2016, there is quite a lot of paperwork you have to submit. It’s not that easy to get a loan for renovating an existing property; not to mention that from a bank’s perspective, it’s valued differently than a new build. But smarter users might already have commented on that or will do so.I’m very curious. In principle, I’m rather relaxed about these issues. We would be committing less than 25% of our net income to ongoing loan repayments, which in my opinion should be manageable. Hopefully...
C
Caspar202011 May 2016 12:19Bauexperte schrieb:
but smarter users will know what to write about that, if they haven’t already. Since the original poster has not commented on this side of the story, there was nothing to say about it yet. mvossmail schrieb:
We would commit less than 25% of our net income to ongoing loan repayments, that should be Hopefully that means you have substantial equity. Loan repayment alone is not the only factor you need to keep in mind. Banks are often strict about cost estimates in advance. A rough estimate isn’t always enough.
For example, a new kitchen: up to 10,000€ (about $11,000) often cannot be included in the construction financing.
Have you already talked to a bank or a broker about your project?
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