Hello everyone!
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
mvossmail schrieb:
But what I actually hoped for with this thread: Imagine you were renovating a house. You have unlimited choice regarding budget, location, and technology. What energy-saving measures would you implement now and why? And which heating technology?Overall, I think your plan is very good.
I would plan bottom-up: clarify with professionals what can be done for around 150,000 euros. Then determine: is that enough for you or not? Or what can be left out to stay within budget.
If I were in the quoted, hypothetical situation:
- Install insulation / floor assembly / windows / exterior doors to at least meet the Energy Saving Ordinance 100 standards. Check for modernization subsidies from KFW! This type of renovation is certainly eligible for funding based on the criteria.
- Install underfloor heating where it makes sense (modern heating systems can run both an underfloor heating loop and a radiator loop in parallel). Of course, with verification through heating load calculations once the final insulation values are known.
- Use a heat pump. Ideally a groundwater heat pump (GWHP) or a ground-source heat pump. These have significantly higher coefficients of performance (annual performance factors) than air-to-water heat pumps.
- Consider whether a controlled mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery makes sense (consult an energy advisor). If everything is already being opened up, such a system could be installed. But it costs about 10,000 euros.
- If it turns out that reaching Energy Saving Ordinance 100 insulation levels is too expensive or complicated, relax this a bit and possibly keep the heating concept with a gas condensing boiler / oil boiler and radiators (again based on heating load calculations). In this case, you might need a solar thermal system (at least for domestic hot water), which also costs around 4,000 euros plus. Consider whether, instead of a controlled ventilation system with heat recovery, passive ventilation (windows) could be installed.
- Save money by leaving the paved area in the garden as is. Removing 300 square meters (approximately 3,200 sq ft) of asphalt or concrete is expensive. The outdoor areas are already there, so you can gradually work on them over time.
Overall, I *assume* (without being able to predict the future) that quite a lot can be achieved for the stated 150,000 euros. Although I believe your cost estimates for heating and insulation are significantly too low. But the appraiser / energy advisor will determine this, and since—as mentioned—there are several alternatives, you will be able to choose your path.
- Use a water storage tank of sufficient and appropriate size; 300 liters (approximately 80 gallons) is not bad.
- Make compromises to possibly save money on room modifications / layout changes.
- Bathrooms can be extremely expensive, but you can also build a functional one for much less money.
Best regards,
Thorsten
M
mvossmail10 May 2016 08:25That all sounds good. I’ll have to look up all the abbreviations later, but for now, I agree with the other comments. We have a reliable structural engineer on board (who has also worked with all my siblings) and he already mentioned that energy-related measures (actually almost anything that can be classified as such) can be subsidized up to 100k with a 15% grant—provided it is overseen and approved by a KfW consultant or similar.
As I said, we’ll be reviewing this with experts the day after tomorrow, and a lot will develop from that.
I’ll probably comment again about the abbreviations later... ;-)
As I said, we’ll be reviewing this with experts the day after tomorrow, and a lot will develop from that.
I’ll probably comment again about the abbreviations later... ;-)
M
mvossmail10 May 2016 08:57So, I’ve understood almost all the abbreviations... ;-)
Almost everyone I know has advised against underfloor heating, as well as wall heating (WH?). They say it’s too slow to respond, too fussy. Does it make sense to combine underfloor heating/wall heating with conventional radiators?
There is a gas boiler (Vitogas 200) in the basement of the house. I assume this is included in the purchase price and could be used. Is it worth keeping? Or should I sell it and invest in a more future-proof system?
I’ve also heard a lot of negative opinions about controlled ventilation systems from traditionalists – “Then you can’t even open a window in winter” – “not good because they’re prone to malfunctions” – and so on. Surely someone here has a different view on this?
I’ll take the other suggestions as input for now and bring them up in the discussion the day after tomorrow. My main concern is to get a lot of natural light into the house. It’s an old building with small windows (except for one 3.50m x 1.50m (11.5ft x 5ft) window...), so there’s little light. I would like to install large skylights or create useful space and light with dormers. Of course, it all comes down to the cost in the end...
As for the bathroom, as I said, I’m not very demanding. I really like shower niches with proper tiling—those would just be two small drywall partitions. A simple bathtub and a basic toilet, done. I hope we can keep the costs low there... Let’s see what the lady of the potential future house thinks... ;-)
Almost everyone I know has advised against underfloor heating, as well as wall heating (WH?). They say it’s too slow to respond, too fussy. Does it make sense to combine underfloor heating/wall heating with conventional radiators?
There is a gas boiler (Vitogas 200) in the basement of the house. I assume this is included in the purchase price and could be used. Is it worth keeping? Or should I sell it and invest in a more future-proof system?
I’ve also heard a lot of negative opinions about controlled ventilation systems from traditionalists – “Then you can’t even open a window in winter” – “not good because they’re prone to malfunctions” – and so on. Surely someone here has a different view on this?
I’ll take the other suggestions as input for now and bring them up in the discussion the day after tomorrow. My main concern is to get a lot of natural light into the house. It’s an old building with small windows (except for one 3.50m x 1.50m (11.5ft x 5ft) window...), so there’s little light. I would like to install large skylights or create useful space and light with dormers. Of course, it all comes down to the cost in the end...
As for the bathroom, as I said, I’m not very demanding. I really like shower niches with proper tiling—those would just be two small drywall partitions. A simple bathtub and a basic toilet, done. I hope we can keep the costs low there... Let’s see what the lady of the potential future house thinks... ;-)
N
nordanney10 May 2016 09:17mvossmail schrieb:
Almost everyone we know has advised against underfloor heating, as well as wall heating (WH?). They say it’s too slow to respond and too fussy. Does it make sense to have a combination of underfloor/wall heating and conventional radiators? No, it makes more sense to go fully with underfloor heating. That is the standard nowadays. Why do your acquaintances advise you against it?
mvossmail schrieb:
I have also heard a lot of negative opinions from conventionalists about mechanical ventilation with heat recovery – things like "then you can’t open windows in winter anymore" or "it’s not reliable" and so on. Surely there must be someone here with a different view? You can only not open the windows if you unscrew the handles 😉. Those comments are probably from people who don’t have mechanical ventilation with heat recovery.
The fact is, you don’t need to open windows anymore to ventilate (this also applies to bathrooms and works well even when cooking or using a raclette etc.). Regardless of the season, the air inside is always fresh. It’s no more or less prone to failure than any other technical device, and maintenance is usually minimal (many models allow you to build and replace the filters yourself regularly). I would definitely install it again – we’ve been using it for two years and are very happy.
The only downside might be if you personally find the air a bit dry in winter. However, there are units with humidity recovery available.
The general opinion here in the forum is in favor of mechanical ventilation with heat recovery.
M
mvossmail10 May 2016 09:29nordanney schrieb:
No, it makes sense to fully switch to underfloor heating. That’s the standard nowadays. Why do your acquaintances advise against it?As I said – many half-baked stories. Mainly because it’s supposedly too slow with children. If they feel cold, they just don’t want to wait a whole day until all the walls and floors have warmed up. But none of them have underfloor heating so far. Ultimately, the question is probably also whether it’s that easy to retrofit underfloor heating into an existing floor.
nordanney schrieb:
The general opinion in this forum is in favor of controlled mechanical ventilation.I thought so. ;-) That will surely be a matter for the consultation as well, let’s see what can be done within the budget.
mvossmail schrieb:
Almost everyone we know has actually advised against underfloor heating, as well as wall heating. Too slow to respond, too much complaining.mvossmail schrieb:
As I said – a lot of half-baked stories. Especially because with children it’s apparently too slow. If they feel cold, they just don’t want to wait a whole day until all the walls and floors have warmed up. But none of them has underfloor heating so far. Ultimately, the question is also whether it’s really easy to retrofit underfloor heating into an existing floor.These are prejudices from the last century (also regarding controlled mechanical ventilation – those comments probably come from uninformed skeptics 😉)
If you want to fully renovate an old house and bring it up to the latest energy standards:
underfloor heating has become standard by now (as mentioned above), and if your building’s insulation meets current standards, the underfloor heating will mainly serve to maintain a comfortable temperature – it’s no longer about turning the heating on and off every six hours. Nothing should and will cool down.
There are many discussions about controlled mechanical ventilation here in the forum – just browse through and read.
You simply have to detach yourself from stories about houses built 15 years ago or earlier. Building a house today works quite differently compared to older generations.
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