Hello everyone!
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
We’ve gone through the whole process now. Everything removed and then rebuilt :-)
It will definitely be an exciting and thrilling time, but also very stressful.
It’s important to clarify as much as possible beforehand. And many surprises will still come your way.
Make sure to keep enough money in reserve. We easily used up our reserve :-(
But the house is now standing, and we are living in it.
It will definitely be an exciting and thrilling time, but also very stressful.
It’s important to clarify as much as possible beforehand. And many surprises will still come your way.
Make sure to keep enough money in reserve. We easily used up our reserve :-(
But the house is now standing, and we are living in it.
mvossmail schrieb:
For example, I hadn’t even questioned gas yetYou don’t have to. You also need to "learn to read" a forum when it comes to exaggerated individual statements or alleged experiences 🙂
M
mvossmail11 May 2016 12:38Caspar2020 schrieb:
Have you already discussed the project with a bank or broker?I believe the entire financing topic is currently a minor issue. Of course, it will become a decisive factor eventually, but realistically, I don’t expect major problems. We have some equity available in smaller amounts (we’re still quite young...), plus some tied-up capital (for example, the kitchen in our current apartment could be sold to the next tenant for about €5000 (approximately $5500)). We could contribute a lot of work ourselves (also with family help—3 of 6 siblings live nearby), and the whole purchase is also supported by family. In other words: before it fails because of lack of equity, my father will buy the house himself and contribute equity that way.
Since my wife is a civil servant teacher and I work in IT, both of us quite risk-averse regarding the future, I consider the financing achievable. We had financial advice for real estate about a year ago and at that time decided we didn’t want to commit to €400,000–450,000 (approximately $440,000–495,000). With sufficient equity, we could have gotten that amount, though. New advice related to this project is expected next week.
Koempy schrieb:
It’s important to clarify as much as possible beforehand. And many surprises will still come your way. Definitely keep enough money in reserve. We easily used up our reserve :-(Yes, I think so too... We plan to keep a 10% reserve, which we could spend on non-essential things like garden landscaping if it’s not used up. How large was your reserve?
Koempy schrieb:
But the house is built now and we’re living in it. Congratulations! :-)
mvossmail schrieb:
Since my wife is a civil servant teacher and I work in IT, both with relatively low risk for the future, we consider the financing manageable. We had financial advice regarding real estate about a year ago and at that time decided we didn’t want to commit to 400–450k (about 400,000–450,000) on a loan. We could have gotten that amount with sufficient equity, though. A new consultation related to this project is expected next week. It was exactly the same for us. We initially wanted to build new, but decided against it because the financing amount seemed too high. The bank would have financed it without issue, but I wouldn’t have been able to sleep well.
mvossmail schrieb:
Yes, I think so too... We would plan a 10% contingency, which, if unused, could be spent on non-essential things like garden landscaping. How much contingency did you set aside? I think 10% is too low. We had just over 20% contingency, and it still wasn’t enough. But that also depended on us because we chose much higher-quality finishes than originally planned. Many ideas and wishes only come up during the renovation phase when you get deeply involved with the project.
If any work on the exterior grounds is planned, I would definitely include it now. Otherwise, funds will be missing at the end.
I would always plan for the worst-case scenario, and if money is left over, it’s a pleasant surprise. But a renovation ends up costing more than you expect.
In the end, it was still significantly cheaper for us than building new 🙂
M
mvossmail11 May 2016 13:53Okay, I’ll definitely take that idea into account for the financial planning.
I had a clever idea today. Originally, I wanted to convert the attic enough to create either a children’s room or a home office (for two people). Both options would be really great, but costly, since we’d need to plan for at least one large dormer, probably even a double dormer spanning the top two floors.
As an alternative, I thought about building a small extension that could serve both as a living room and as a carport/garage. The whole thing would be split-level (at ground level, i.e., between the basement and the raised ground floor), which I find excellent for living spaces.
The question, of course, is: Is it more cost-effective to attach a well-insulated prefab structure to the house, or is converting the roof truss cheaper? It would also create living space on the ground floor, which certainly has advantages for accessibility in emergencies or old age. From your experience, are there reasons or key factors that speak in favor of one option or the other?
I had a clever idea today. Originally, I wanted to convert the attic enough to create either a children’s room or a home office (for two people). Both options would be really great, but costly, since we’d need to plan for at least one large dormer, probably even a double dormer spanning the top two floors.
As an alternative, I thought about building a small extension that could serve both as a living room and as a carport/garage. The whole thing would be split-level (at ground level, i.e., between the basement and the raised ground floor), which I find excellent for living spaces.
The question, of course, is: Is it more cost-effective to attach a well-insulated prefab structure to the house, or is converting the roof truss cheaper? It would also create living space on the ground floor, which certainly has advantages for accessibility in emergencies or old age. From your experience, are there reasons or key factors that speak in favor of one option or the other?
C
Caspar202011 May 2016 13:59I don’t want to discourage you, but since March 21st, things have been changing a bit.
You shouldn’t approach this too naively. It’s possible that taxes or fees might be charged twice, and banks usually prefer the owner to also be the borrower. Also, it’s important to have an open discussion about who will bear which risks or take on which obligations.
One tip: don’t rely on advice from just one banker. Especially since your situation doesn’t seem standard; they are not responsible for tax-related matters.
mvossmail schrieb:
Before it fails due to lack of equity, my father will buy the house himself and thus provide additional equity.
You shouldn’t approach this too naively. It’s possible that taxes or fees might be charged twice, and banks usually prefer the owner to also be the borrower. Also, it’s important to have an open discussion about who will bear which risks or take on which obligations.
One tip: don’t rely on advice from just one banker. Especially since your situation doesn’t seem standard; they are not responsible for tax-related matters.