Hello everyone!
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
[QUOTE="mvossmail, post: 131904, member: 21902"]
But what I really hoped to get from this thread: Imagine you were renovating a house. You have unlimited budget, choice of location, and technology. What energy-saving measures would you take and why? And which heating technology would you choose?
- Definitely insulate the floor – it makes a big difference, especially with underfloor heating, and you usually won’t want to tear it up again later. Insulating from below is also good, for example the ceiling of a basement.
- Underfloor heating – for the same reason. You won’t be able to access it later, so if you have to replace the heating system anyway, go for something really comfortable.
- Heating: I hate gas, so we chose pellets. Why do I hate gas? Where I lived before, houses occasionally exploded due to gas leaks (in Bremen), which I experienced firsthand. Secondly, it’s a fossil fuel with no future (even though there are still some reserves left, but those are finite and it creates dependency on Russian supplies – no thanks!). Thirdly, gas is the fuel of choice for cheap social housing where I lived most of my life, and those heating units are terribly noisy when they start up, and sometimes shut off at the worst times – like when you’re showering and only get cold water. Cooking with gas might be trendy for professional chefs, but lighting the stove with a match feels like something from the Stone Age to me. So you can tell I’m not a fan of gas, no matter how often my in-laws tell me modern gas boilers are completely different.
But everyone has to decide for themselves! Condensing gas boilers, for example, are said to be very efficient and suitable for low-temperature heating systems and can modulate well...
With pellets, you can get a water-heated pellet stove that looks nice, offers the ambiance of a flame, and also supports the underfloor heating. These are quite affordable at around 3,500 Euros and installation is simple and cheap since all the technology including pumps and controls is built into the stove. We have a pellet boiler, which is a cross between a stove (in terms of connections) and a boiler (no window for viewing the fire). It qualified for higher subsidies from BAFA than a stove, but the price was about the same (search "Red compact slim" if interested).
I would definitely replace the windows and front door, and insulate both the façade and the attic. Basically, anything that involves making a mess, opening walls, and has the greatest potential savings should be done right at the start.
Ideally, you should have an energy consultant inspect the house and create a plan. This only costs a “few euros” – and you can get a subsidy for it from KfW. They can also tell you how much insulation is needed where and what is most worthwhile.
If possible, I would also install a photovoltaic system on the roof. We did that first thing in 2013 and never regretted it!
But what I really hoped to get from this thread: Imagine you were renovating a house. You have unlimited budget, choice of location, and technology. What energy-saving measures would you take and why? And which heating technology would you choose?
- Definitely insulate the floor – it makes a big difference, especially with underfloor heating, and you usually won’t want to tear it up again later. Insulating from below is also good, for example the ceiling of a basement.
- Underfloor heating – for the same reason. You won’t be able to access it later, so if you have to replace the heating system anyway, go for something really comfortable.
- Heating: I hate gas, so we chose pellets. Why do I hate gas? Where I lived before, houses occasionally exploded due to gas leaks (in Bremen), which I experienced firsthand. Secondly, it’s a fossil fuel with no future (even though there are still some reserves left, but those are finite and it creates dependency on Russian supplies – no thanks!). Thirdly, gas is the fuel of choice for cheap social housing where I lived most of my life, and those heating units are terribly noisy when they start up, and sometimes shut off at the worst times – like when you’re showering and only get cold water. Cooking with gas might be trendy for professional chefs, but lighting the stove with a match feels like something from the Stone Age to me. So you can tell I’m not a fan of gas, no matter how often my in-laws tell me modern gas boilers are completely different.
But everyone has to decide for themselves! Condensing gas boilers, for example, are said to be very efficient and suitable for low-temperature heating systems and can modulate well...
With pellets, you can get a water-heated pellet stove that looks nice, offers the ambiance of a flame, and also supports the underfloor heating. These are quite affordable at around 3,500 Euros and installation is simple and cheap since all the technology including pumps and controls is built into the stove. We have a pellet boiler, which is a cross between a stove (in terms of connections) and a boiler (no window for viewing the fire). It qualified for higher subsidies from BAFA than a stove, but the price was about the same (search "Red compact slim" if interested).
I would definitely replace the windows and front door, and insulate both the façade and the attic. Basically, anything that involves making a mess, opening walls, and has the greatest potential savings should be done right at the start.
Ideally, you should have an energy consultant inspect the house and create a plan. This only costs a “few euros” – and you can get a subsidy for it from KfW. They can also tell you how much insulation is needed where and what is most worthwhile.
If possible, I would also install a photovoltaic system on the roof. We did that first thing in 2013 and never regretted it!
M
mvossmail10 May 2016 14:34Elina schrieb:
The best approach is to have an energy consultant assess the house and develop a plan. It only costs a "few euros," but you can get a subsidy from KFW for it. They can also advise how much insulation is needed where and what is most worthwhile.Yes, we will definitely do that. As mentioned, on Thursday we will walk through the house with a general handyman and a structural engineer (separately) to see how they assess the situation. The structural engineer also said he would like to do this in conjunction with an energy consultant, partly because it may enable state subsidies.
We don’t have a direct problem with gas at the moment. I will definitely avoid a Brötje boiler (the Brötje constantly fails in our rental apartment), but I am open to advice on what makes sense technically and financially.
M
mvossmail10 May 2016 15:39@Elina Thanks for the tip. This is exactly why I'm here. :-)
mvossmail schrieb:
So, almost all abbreviations understood... ;-) Great! You’re getting into the topic. Glad to hear that.
mvossmail schrieb:
Almost everyone we know advised against underfloor heating, as well as wall heating (WH?). Too slow to respond, too fussy. Does it make sense to have a combination of underfloor/wall heating and conventional radiators? My partner Steffi and I don’t like underfloor heating, so we didn’t install it. Of course, it’s basically standard nowadays. Everyone wants it, except for two people in Germany, one of whom is posting here. I’m a bit embarrassed but don’t want to invite more comments on that. 😱
Like every system, underfloor heating has pros and cons. Everyone should judge for themselves.
A mix of underfloor heating and radiators can make sense. For example, if the owners want underfloor heating in the bathroom but want to skip it elsewhere. I almost did that myself, but the extra 4 weeks of construction time put me off at the time — I was under some pressure then.
It works easily, probably even with the Vitogas-200 mentioned below.
mvossmail schrieb:
There is a gas boiler (Vitogas 200) in the basement of the house. I assume it’s included in the purchase price and could be used. Is that worthwhile? Or should I sell it and invest in a more future-proof system? Sure, the heating system belongs to the house.
That’s a low-temperature boiler, not a condensing boiler. It has about 90% to 93% efficiency. Not a disaster, though.
How old is the unit?
Is it still in good condition — what does the chimney sweep say?
If it’s still okay and you plan to keep a gas heating system: keep it for now and replace it later. That would be my advice.
mvossmail schrieb:
I’ve heard a lot of negative things from conventionalists about controlled mechanical ventilation – “then you can’t open windows in winter,” “not good because it’s prone to faults,” etc. Surely someone here has a different view? Absolutely. The statement above is clearly nonsense.
The truth is: You don’t need to open windows to ventilate in winter. Of course, you are allowed to open them if you want. It doesn’t cause any harm. Nothing breaks, except that opening windows wastes energy unnecessarily compared to controlled ventilation.
Controlled mechanical ventilation with heat recovery (HRV) is great.
mvossmail schrieb:
I’m taking the other points as initial input and will bring them up in the discussion day after tomorrow. My main concern is to get a lot of light into the house. It’s an old building, small windows (except for one 3.50 x 1.50 meter (11.5 x 5 feet) window…), little light. I would like to install large roof windows or create more space and light with dormers. Of course, it’s ultimately a question of cost... Double casement windows are still affordable and relatively easy to install, but their insulation performance is rather poor…
But dormers… oh boy! Dormers are always expensive. Very expensive. Rough estimate: Even a small dormer will cost you roughly 10,000 euros (about 10,000 USD).
mvossmail schrieb:
As for the bathroom, I’m not very demanding. I really like shower niches with proper tiling, which would just be two small drywall walls. A simple bathtub and a basic toilet, done. I hope we can keep costs down… Let’s see what the lady of the possibly future house has to say about that… ;-) Looking forward to seeing how that turns out.
Elina schrieb:
Third, gas is the preferred energy source for affordable social housing, where I have spent most of my life, and these boilers are terribly loud when they start up, then shut off when you don’t want them to — for example, only cold water in the middle of a shower…😉
A modern gas condensing boiler has a connected water storage tank.
The kind of tankless gas water heater you’re referring to is indeed quite rare and genuinely noisy. That said, there are modern versions of these devices that work well. We have one in the house my father lives in, which I partly own (50%): dreadful unit.
The origin of so-called fossil fuels is controversial, especially in Russian research, and opinions are evolving, partly due to extraterrestrial studies and the presence of methane on other planets. Just yesterday, I saw a report about this. Very interesting. We can discuss this privately, as it’s clearly off-topic here and probably not relevant to the original poster. The fact remains that these energy sources release CO2, which is harmful to the environment.
However, it is also true that the electricity powering heat pumps mainly comes from coal-fired power plants during winter — “very resource-friendly,” as some say. You have pellets, which is great. We also supplement heating with wood in a fireplace stove. I think that is acceptable.
As for the philosophy of heating systems and their energy sources, you can debate endlessly. In my opinion, there is still no perfect solution as of 2016.
Best regards,
Thorsten
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