M
mvossmail9 May 2016 15:14Hello everyone!
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
N
nordanney9 May 2016 15:49If you’re renovating and also addressing energy efficiency measures, make sure to involve a professional.
They can a) provide sound advice on heating systems and assess the measures needed (including calculating the required heating capacity) and b) assist with funding programs related to KfW.
Among all the energy renovation options, underfloor heating powered by a small air-to-water heat pump (Panasonic Geisha) might be worth considering.
Otherwise, prices can be either too high or significantly too low. A bathroom renovation can easily cost around €25,000 (approximately $27,000). It depends on what you want.
Water and wastewater pipes? Renewing interior plaster (which often involves considerable removal work)? Flooring? Insulating the basement ceiling? What does preparation for smart home systems mean (preparing KNX and then not implementing it is double work with corresponding double costs)?
They can a) provide sound advice on heating systems and assess the measures needed (including calculating the required heating capacity) and b) assist with funding programs related to KfW.
Among all the energy renovation options, underfloor heating powered by a small air-to-water heat pump (Panasonic Geisha) might be worth considering.
Otherwise, prices can be either too high or significantly too low. A bathroom renovation can easily cost around €25,000 (approximately $27,000). It depends on what you want.
Water and wastewater pipes? Renewing interior plaster (which often involves considerable removal work)? Flooring? Insulating the basement ceiling? What does preparation for smart home systems mean (preparing KNX and then not implementing it is double work with corresponding double costs)?
Facade for up to 10,000? You won’t get very far with that. For comparison: the cheapest quote I received for three sides of the basement (ETICS 16 cm (6 inches) + plaster and paint) was 8,000 euros. The cheapest offer for the upper floor was 17,000 euros (6 cm (2.5 inches) mineral wool, plastic cladding). The house measures 9.70 x 10.40 meters (32 x 34 feet). Plus an extension that was not renovated.
Heating at 15,000 is also quite optimistic, depending on what you plan to install. Our pellet boiler, including buffer tank and installation, cost 6,000 euros, but it is hand-fed like a stove.
Underfloor heating in an older building is possible and we are doing it as well, but then you have to add floor insulation. That is definitely one of the things I would do in an old building, even if it means, as in our case, that the screed has to be broken out.
As long as you haven’t obtained quotes for the individual items, the numbers you mentioned @ TE are just rough estimates. Whether they match reality will depend on the actual offers. We managed with 60,000 euros, but only with a great deal of DIY work, without renovations, bathrooms, new kitchen, or electrical work. Included was only the energy-efficient shell (insulation, windows, front door, heating, air conditioning).
Heating at 15,000 is also quite optimistic, depending on what you plan to install. Our pellet boiler, including buffer tank and installation, cost 6,000 euros, but it is hand-fed like a stove.
Underfloor heating in an older building is possible and we are doing it as well, but then you have to add floor insulation. That is definitely one of the things I would do in an old building, even if it means, as in our case, that the screed has to be broken out.
As long as you haven’t obtained quotes for the individual items, the numbers you mentioned @ TE are just rough estimates. Whether they match reality will depend on the actual offers. We managed with 60,000 euros, but only with a great deal of DIY work, without renovations, bathrooms, new kitchen, or electrical work. Included was only the energy-efficient shell (insulation, windows, front door, heating, air conditioning).
M
mvossmail9 May 2016 16:37I already suspected that the facade might be a potential challenge... The upper floor is entirely within the roof space, so it would be insulated together with the roof. However, the facade would then have to cover part of the basement wall – although insulation at the bottom wouldn’t be necessary anymore. The house’s footprint is really small (approximately 8.50 * 9m (28 * 30 feet)), so I estimate that the facade should be manageable.
Insulating the basement ceiling is a good tip; that hadn’t occurred to me before.
Regarding the bathrooms, I think we prefer something low-maintenance. I love walk-in showers with no threshold (where technically feasible), so we probably don’t need a proper shower tray. My wife will definitely want a bathtub again, but nothing too fancy. The guest toilet (currently 1.45m² (16 sq ft)) won’t allow for much anyway.
We will definitely bring in skilled professionals; the first walkthrough with contractors is on Thursday. I’m not familiar with the water pipes and plumbing yet; that will become clearer then. The wall and ceiling plaster actually looks good, but I’m still not quite fond of the concrete-like feel. So it might be drywall or a gypsum plaster of some kind on top. We’ll see what ideas the experts come up with. ;-)
Insulating the basement ceiling is a good tip; that hadn’t occurred to me before.
Regarding the bathrooms, I think we prefer something low-maintenance. I love walk-in showers with no threshold (where technically feasible), so we probably don’t need a proper shower tray. My wife will definitely want a bathtub again, but nothing too fancy. The guest toilet (currently 1.45m² (16 sq ft)) won’t allow for much anyway.
We will definitely bring in skilled professionals; the first walkthrough with contractors is on Thursday. I’m not familiar with the water pipes and plumbing yet; that will become clearer then. The wall and ceiling plaster actually looks good, but I’m still not quite fond of the concrete-like feel. So it might be drywall or a gypsum plaster of some kind on top. We’ll see what ideas the experts come up with. ;-)
M
mvossmail9 May 2016 16:38The house is on a leasehold, with the contract still running for 48 years at approximately €300/year (about $320/year). A purchase offer of €71,000 (about $76,000) has been made.
Which interest rate is being referred to?
Which interest rate is being referred to?
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