Hello everyone!
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
In the past, I have always found very knowledgeable people here and I hope you can help me again this time with advice and ideas. While it was recently about a property that was too expensive, the plan is different this time.
The basic situation is actually quite classic. The grandmother can no longer live in her own house, so if possible, it should stay within the family. The plot is completely flat and rectangular, about 1150 sqm (12,382 sq ft) in total. Of that, about 850 sqm (9,150 sq ft) is leased land (ground rent of 300 €/year), and the rest belongs as property to the house. The house is a solid concrete structure, built in 1963/1964. Two stories (plus a small, unfinished attic), fully basemented. Living area about 120 sqm (1,292 sq ft) over 2 floors.
An appraisal was commissioned, and the value of the house was estimated at €80,000 (including renovation needs, age depreciation, location, etc.) — the basic structure is in good condition, though. Basically, almost EVERYTHING needs to be done... Meaning: electrical work, plumbing, partial redesign of the layout, new windows/doors, new roof, and so on.
Now we have several questions. On the one hand, the offer — because it is within the family — is excellent. The location is great, the house fits the living situation and is expandable. On the open market, much more could probably be made given the current market situation. But apart from that, so much needs to be done that we can't easily estimate the costs.
Question 1: Is $150,000 enough for a renovation of this scope? As mentioned, a lot needs to be done. Electrical, plumbing, new walls, and interior fittings we see as smaller issues. Bigger items will surely be the roof with a new roof frame and an attic ready for expansion (we want to add attic rooms extending into the second floor to increase living space), heating with new radiators (or whatever—as per question 2), new windows/front door/interior doors, and things on that scale.
My estimate would be:
New heating system including radiators (or alternative): Up to $15,000
New windows/doors including installation: Up to $20,000
Facade insulation: Up to $10,000
New roof including roof frame, insulation, and expansions: Up to $40,000
Changes to room layout: Up to $10,000
New electrical installation including smart home preparation: Up to $10,000
New sanitary fixtures (1 guest WC, 1 bathroom): Up to $15,000
New kitchen: Up to $10,000
Other interior work: Up to $20,000
Changes to outdoor areas: Up to $20,000
Am I completely overlooking anything here? Are some of these items priced way too high or way too low? Of course, I understand that such rough estimates are not easy to make, but are my expectations far from reality?
Question 2: What is currently considered a sensible energy concept for renovating an old building? As mentioned, the house is solid concrete right up to the attic structure. The exterior walls are 24 cm (9.5 inches) thick; in the basement mostly 30 cm (12 inches). In your opinion, what would be a viable upgrade heating concept that will work for the next 50 years? Radiators are basically outdated, right? But is there any other way to heat an old building? What other systems (air/heat exchangers, geothermal, etc.) would you consider if this were your house?
We can certainly do some of the work ourselves, otherwise we have access to an excellent tradesperson for most tasks (at least for interior, electrical, and plumbing work) who has done great work in the houses of my parents and siblings. The cost there is about $35 per hour. We probably cannot do the windows, facade, or roof ourselves. The outdoor areas would also partly need professional help — there is about 200–300 sqm (2,150–3,230 sq ft) of asphalt that definitely needs to be removed...
I look forward to your ideas and opinions. :-)
mvossmail schrieb:
Which interest rate is being referred to?The 300 €! - that’s practically a freebie 😉 How do you get to 71,000? 🤨
M
mvossmail9 May 2016 20:44The 300 are really given away. The 71,000 are based on the municipality’s standard land value but are already 10€ below it. So the offer is good too – but I’d rather invest the 71,000 in a veranda or something like that – what happens in 48 years doesn’t really matter to me right now. By then, we’ll probably have to move into a nursing home anyway or might be able to buy the plot later.
At 300€ per year and still 48 years remaining, there’s not even a hint of a reason to consider it with a purchase price of 71,000€. The 300€ is probably without regular increases and is already 52 years old. Back then, 600 Deutsche Marks were still worth quite a lot. This clearly shows how little 600 Marks / 300€ is worth after 50 years.
What exactly are you supposed to pay the family now? The value of the property, or what was the appraiser’s purpose anyway? The market is currently very favorable to sellers, but run-down houses were never really in high demand. Of course, there is a buyer, but definitely not at the property’s value price. The 48 years of leasehold with 300€/year are reasonable, but for a young couple, that’s a few years too short (one would need to think about the purchase or a significantly more expensive new lease when retiring).
Such a house only really makes sense if you can first complete the main renovation within a manageable budget and then do the rest yourself while already living in it.
What exactly are you supposed to pay the family now? The value of the property, or what was the appraiser’s purpose anyway? The market is currently very favorable to sellers, but run-down houses were never really in high demand. Of course, there is a buyer, but definitely not at the property’s value price. The 48 years of leasehold with 300€/year are reasonable, but for a young couple, that’s a few years too short (one would need to think about the purchase or a significantly more expensive new lease when retiring).
Such a house only really makes sense if you can first complete the main renovation within a manageable budget and then do the rest yourself while already living in it.
M
mvossmail9 May 2016 21:37By now, enough interested people from our family circle have come forward. I believe that on the open market, the house with the (really great) plot could sell for over 100,000. We would accept the appraised 80,000 and save the property transfer tax.
I would actually describe us as a young couple (both still under 30), but I still see 48 years as a reasonable period. By the time that runs out, we will be almost 80 – who knows what the world will look like then... The landowner is eager to sell (a bankrupt estate), so I also see good chances to buy it in 10 years.
It would be great for us that with 250,000 we can build a great house and then have freedom for further investments for many years. We could actually move in as soon as the initial interior work (the usual) is done and then gradually complete, for example, the attic or similar.
I would actually describe us as a young couple (both still under 30), but I still see 48 years as a reasonable period. By the time that runs out, we will be almost 80 – who knows what the world will look like then... The landowner is eager to sell (a bankrupt estate), so I also see good chances to buy it in 10 years.
It would be great for us that with 250,000 we can build a great house and then have freedom for further investments for many years. We could actually move in as soon as the initial interior work (the usual) is done and then gradually complete, for example, the attic or similar.
EveundGerd9 May 2016 21:41We have found that certain tasks during renovation should not be postponed. These include electrical work, water pipes, the heating system including radiators, and the bathrooms. Additionally, the windows and front door should be carefully evaluated!
Smaller tasks, such as wallpapering and installing floor coverings in rooms that are not immediately needed, can be delayed. Other work tends to be pushed back repeatedly after moving in.
Smaller tasks, such as wallpapering and installing floor coverings in rooms that are not immediately needed, can be delayed. Other work tends to be pushed back repeatedly after moving in.
mvossmail schrieb:
I also see good chances of still being able to buy it in 10 years.
It would be great for us to build a fantastic house with 250,000.You probably don’t believe that if you invest 250k, the land will just be handed over to you afterward. As an owner, I would definitely play hardball if you come in 10 years.
I have the leasehold anyway.