Hello,
I recently purchased an end-terrace house built in 1986 and am planning the upcoming renovation work. Now I am wondering whether I need to replace the roof insulation to improve thermal protection against heat and cold. This would be a good time since we do not yet live in the house.
It has a pitched roof that covers two floors (out of three). The attic is converted into a room and has radiators and two roof windows (Braas) on each side. The ceilings and walls are covered with wooden battens, while on the second floor the walls and ceilings are covered with drywall panels.
The construction description states:
"Plasterboard on counter battens, 10cm (4 inches) mineral wool, between joists, air space, concrete roof tiles."
A vapor barrier/retardant foil is visible.
In some areas of the attic, wooden beams have warped slightly forward and cannot be pushed back by hand. Also, some wooden paneling is missing, leaving the insulation exposed.
I have read that until the 1990s, carcinogenic mineral wool was used. Unfortunately, I do not know which type is installed in my house. Should the insulation be replaced for this reason alone?
According to the previous owner, drafts are only noticeable through the bedroom inspection hatch on the second floor. Otherwise, there is nothing unusual in winter or summer.
What do you recommend: replace or leave as is?
I recently purchased an end-terrace house built in 1986 and am planning the upcoming renovation work. Now I am wondering whether I need to replace the roof insulation to improve thermal protection against heat and cold. This would be a good time since we do not yet live in the house.
It has a pitched roof that covers two floors (out of three). The attic is converted into a room and has radiators and two roof windows (Braas) on each side. The ceilings and walls are covered with wooden battens, while on the second floor the walls and ceilings are covered with drywall panels.
The construction description states:
"Plasterboard on counter battens, 10cm (4 inches) mineral wool, between joists, air space, concrete roof tiles."
A vapor barrier/retardant foil is visible.
In some areas of the attic, wooden beams have warped slightly forward and cannot be pushed back by hand. Also, some wooden paneling is missing, leaving the insulation exposed.
I have read that until the 1990s, carcinogenic mineral wool was used. Unfortunately, I do not know which type is installed in my house. Should the insulation be replaced for this reason alone?
According to the previous owner, drafts are only noticeable through the bedroom inspection hatch on the second floor. Otherwise, there is nothing unusual in winter or summer.
What do you recommend: replace or leave as is?
You don’t seem to have practical experience. I have often dealt with old buildings, and almost always there are execution errors or damage in the old insulation.
In such cases, replacement is always advisable, provided it is done correctly.
Also, please read carefully. I wrote that the gypsum board can be installed on the OSB board. The OSB3 panel effectively replaces the vapor retarder or acts as a vapor barrier in this setup—again, if done properly.
And I’ll repeat myself: dealing with existing structures means making compromises. Everyone involved needs to be aware of this.
The original poster wants to minimize loss of space. This is only possible by avoiding additional furring or by investing about 40,000 (units not specified) for insulation above the rafters.
Regarding the 20% rule, the original poster is probably referring to his assembly. He adds another 40mm (1.6 inches) of mineral wool on the room side. It is important to carefully check whether condensation forms on the vapor barrier in that case.
No questions about the energy saving regulations (building permit / planning permission) have been raised so far. Usually, these regulations are not a major concern during renovation or refurbishment.
In such cases, replacement is always advisable, provided it is done correctly.
Also, please read carefully. I wrote that the gypsum board can be installed on the OSB board. The OSB3 panel effectively replaces the vapor retarder or acts as a vapor barrier in this setup—again, if done properly.
And I’ll repeat myself: dealing with existing structures means making compromises. Everyone involved needs to be aware of this.
The original poster wants to minimize loss of space. This is only possible by avoiding additional furring or by investing about 40,000 (units not specified) for insulation above the rafters.
Regarding the 20% rule, the original poster is probably referring to his assembly. He adds another 40mm (1.6 inches) of mineral wool on the room side. It is important to carefully check whether condensation forms on the vapor barrier in that case.
No questions about the energy saving regulations (building permit / planning permission) have been raised so far. Usually, these regulations are not a major concern during renovation or refurbishment.
N
nix zu schwör27 Jul 2019 12:08This is not about defects or damage to old mineral wool.
Are you not pretending to have practical knowledge?
Old mineral wool often has a carcinogenic rating of K1b or K2. However, this can usually be clarified based on the construction year (before June 2000) and the manufacturer.
In practice, the issue is the removal process. For “old” mineral wool, during demolition, renovation, and maintenance work, TRGS 521 and the corresponding protection level concept must be observed and applied. There is currently no obligation to renovate “old” mineral wool; however, reinstalling dismantled “old” mineral wool is not permitted.
What kind of OSB do you want to use, 22mm (7/8 inch)?
How does the cost of OSB compare to gypsum board?
A membrane (vapor barrier) makes it much easier to accommodate roof movement and connects elastically to the existing structure.
Are you not pretending to have practical knowledge?
Old mineral wool often has a carcinogenic rating of K1b or K2. However, this can usually be clarified based on the construction year (before June 2000) and the manufacturer.
In practice, the issue is the removal process. For “old” mineral wool, during demolition, renovation, and maintenance work, TRGS 521 and the corresponding protection level concept must be observed and applied. There is currently no obligation to renovate “old” mineral wool; however, reinstalling dismantled “old” mineral wool is not permitted.
What kind of OSB do you want to use, 22mm (7/8 inch)?
How does the cost of OSB compare to gypsum board?
A membrane (vapor barrier) makes it much easier to accommodate roof movement and connects elastically to the existing structure.
You, on the other hand, are clearly the theorist. The finishing work is not an issue, as long as you protect yourself accordingly.
And it’s not about an obligation, but about common sense. Old, damaged, thin, or improperly installed insulation simply doesn’t make sense in many respects.
OSB3 worked perfectly. The wall connection can be excellently sealed with permanently elastic sealing tape used in window construction.
The vapor barrier should actually be embedded in plaster. Otherwise, it is glued.
But the vapor barrier certainly serves its purpose, and a good one at that.
Since you are so good at theory and reading, please take another close look at my posts. If you already have, then it seems the issue is with reading comprehension.
You can also answer the posed pricing question yourself. Or was that just a rhetorical device meant to make me look as foolish as possible?
I kindly ask you to stop with that. We can discuss matters on a factual level if you like. I will refrain from engaging with anything else in the future.
And it’s not about an obligation, but about common sense. Old, damaged, thin, or improperly installed insulation simply doesn’t make sense in many respects.
OSB3 worked perfectly. The wall connection can be excellently sealed with permanently elastic sealing tape used in window construction.
The vapor barrier should actually be embedded in plaster. Otherwise, it is glued.
But the vapor barrier certainly serves its purpose, and a good one at that.
Since you are so good at theory and reading, please take another close look at my posts. If you already have, then it seems the issue is with reading comprehension.
You can also answer the posed pricing question yourself. Or was that just a rhetorical device meant to make me look as foolish as possible?
I kindly ask you to stop with that. We can discuss matters on a factual level if you like. I will refrain from engaging with anything else in the future.
N
nix zu schwör28 Jul 2019 12:24@Joedreck
I didn’t respond to your comment at all. It seems the OSB in my comment caught your attention. The discussion was about the dimensions and summer thermal insulation, not about airtightness.
There is a valid reason to actually use OSB, for example, if there is no diagonal wind bracing and a covering is installed over battens. However, handling OSB4 overhead can be very demanding.
Unless OSB is pointless, as with fire protection in party wall construction, but I haven’t seen anything about that.
I didn’t respond to your comment at all. It seems the OSB in my comment caught your attention. The discussion was about the dimensions and summer thermal insulation, not about airtightness.
There is a valid reason to actually use OSB, for example, if there is no diagonal wind bracing and a covering is installed over battens. However, handling OSB4 overhead can be very demanding.
Unless OSB is pointless, as with fire protection in party wall construction, but I haven’t seen anything about that.
A
atomic20004 Aug 2019 15:28No arguing
Thank you all for your responses!
As I mentioned, the old insulation was cracked, around the roof hatch area it was completely missing for about 1 meter (3 feet) running around the roof, and I wanted to remove the old / hazardous wool.
I bought protective suits (Category III, Type 5 and 6) and masks (FFP3). I hope that was enough.
Here is what I have done:
14 cm (5.5 inches) of insulation between the rafters (035 stone wool – Klemmrock), a vapor control layer (RockTect Intello climate Plus), and then 4 cm (1.5 inches) of insulation below the rafters (035, Formrock).
This leaves at least 3 cm (1 inch) for ventilation.
For cladding, I am using 12.5 mm (0.5 inch) drywall panels.
The problem I now face is at the eaves near the window, where the beams run. It’s hard to reach, and I will probably need to remove the wooden panels in the eaves.
Thank you all for your responses!
As I mentioned, the old insulation was cracked, around the roof hatch area it was completely missing for about 1 meter (3 feet) running around the roof, and I wanted to remove the old / hazardous wool.
I bought protective suits (Category III, Type 5 and 6) and masks (FFP3). I hope that was enough.
Here is what I have done:
14 cm (5.5 inches) of insulation between the rafters (035 stone wool – Klemmrock), a vapor control layer (RockTect Intello climate Plus), and then 4 cm (1.5 inches) of insulation below the rafters (035, Formrock).
This leaves at least 3 cm (1 inch) for ventilation.
For cladding, I am using 12.5 mm (0.5 inch) drywall panels.
The problem I now face is at the eaves near the window, where the beams run. It’s hard to reach, and I will probably need to remove the wooden panels in the eaves.
N
nix zu schwör5 Aug 2019 11:51Then at least you comply retroactively with the 2002 Energy Saving Ordinance.
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