ᐅ Renovating a 1960s House: Questionable Expert Recommendations?

Created on: 1 May 2021 12:16
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schwalbe
Hello everyone,

I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.

My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.

My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.

Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
  • Basement: boiler room + oil storage, workshop, storage/pantry, laundry room with external stairs leading to the garden.
  • Ground floor: entrance hall, toilet, small bathroom with bathtub, living room with a wood stove and patio door (garden access), dining room, kitchen.
  • Upper floor: bathroom (also with wooden floor and carpet on top), 3 bedrooms.
  • Attic, accessible via folding stairs: two small, identical rooms. I estimate about 6m² (65 sq ft) each; this area was not included in the stated living space (123m²). Above these rooms is about 0.8m (2.6 ft) of space up to the ridge.

Current condition:
  • A leak in the workshop: the electrical line entry point is leaking. During heavy rain, about 2 buckets of water enter.
  • Some basement ceilings are covered with old-looking insulation, which appears to be a thin, homemade foam polystyrene layer.
  • Heating: oil heating system, installed in 1999. Gas connection is also available in the house.
  • Electrical wiring is two-wire.
  • Floors are wooden planks everywhere. Most rooms have carpets laid on top.
  • Exterior walls according to the floor plan are 30cm (12 inches) brick with plaster on top.
  • The gable roof was re-covered around 1980 (clay tiles) and has mineral wood fiber insulation between rafters. On the room side there is a "straw mat plaster" and wood paneling. No irregularities are visible from outside; the tiles are just a bit mossy. From inside, you can look directly under the ridge and see the beams with no signs of moisture or similar issues.

Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.

Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).

  • He measured wall moisture in almost every room. Considering the house has been unoccupied and unventilated for two years, the values are good. Of course, there was more moisture in the workshop. He would fix the leak as follows: dig around the corner of the house where the damage is, about 2m (6.5 ft) in radius down to the basement floor level. Disconnect and pull back the electrical cable, drill a new hole, and seal it properly. He estimates the cost at around 5,000 EUR.
  • Surprisingly, he would also install small radiators in the basement rooms to maintain basic heating and thus prevent mold. He said the heat isn’t lost but rises, though to me adding radiators in the basement seemed odd.
  • Regarding the heating system, he recommends replacing the oil boiler with a gas condensing boiler, which would bring significant savings. I find that questionable, especially if the system runs at 70/50°C and nobody wonders why it doesn’t condense.
  • For the exterior walls (minor plaster cracks mainly on the south side), he would simply apply a second layer of plaster to improve appearance, but would not add insulation. If I understand the local energy regulations correctly, this is permissible without mandatory insulation. Still, I have reservations about just plastering over old plaster and hoping it will hold. Is this common practice?
  • As for the roof, he would also leave it as is. However, in my opinion, the energy regulations clearly require insulation of either the top floor ceiling or the roof if the minimum standards of DIN 4108-2 (2013) are not met. The old insulation in the roof likely will not comply.
  • When replacing windows, he would not recommend the most airtight options but double glazing with a U-value between 1.3 and 1.5.
  • He suggested completely renewing the electrical system and estimated costs of at least 20,000 EUR for this. Heating and water pipes would remain. We strongly doubt this, as we don’t feel comfortable keeping 60-year-old pipes, even if they could last another 20 years. Opening walls and floors in a fully occupied home later would be a nightmare.

In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.

I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.

At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.

Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.

schwalbe
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apokolok
3 May 2021 16:32
Almost everything is estimated way too high.
Heating pipes 12k :p
With that, you can get new fresh water, heating, and wastewater piping and still have some left over.
15k for electrical is enough if you don’t need KNX or 1000 spotlights.
The roof insulation above the rafters is also wasted money.
Remove the rigid fiberboard, possibly install a new breathable underlay membrane, and then add new insulation between the rafters.
That costs about 10% of the estimated amount for the above-rafter insulation and can be easily done yourself.
The roof isn’t new but not damaged either.
In my opinion, the floorboards can be renovated, though it might require a lot of work.
How do you get 12k for interior painting? Does the plaster have to be completely redone or what? Painting should cost around 2–4k and can be done yourself with just the cost of materials.
You can get absolutely luxurious bathrooms for that money, nice ones also cost only about one-third to one-half of that amount.
Winniefred4 May 2021 10:54
It always comes down to personal preferences. If you want to upgrade everything and minimize consumption as much as possible, you need to invest significantly more money and completely overhaul everything. Alternatively, you can choose to do only the essentials and save a lot of money but then accept higher consumption. This is more of a fundamental decision.
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Asuni
4 May 2021 11:40
schwalbe schrieb:

@Deliverer:
I know it’s the most expensive option. The roof tiles are 40 years old, I posted pictures earlier.

Just a brief note about the roof tiles. If I remember correctly, the house is covered with beaver tail tiles – when properly installed and if there are no significant weak points or defects in the roof, such a roof covering can have a lifespan of up to 80 years, according to our roofer.

Of course, it depends on what you want – if it’s important to you that the roof is insulated with an underlay membrane, the tiles will need to be removed. If you’re satisfied with adding insulation between the rafters and insulating the top floor ceiling, the existing tiles can be kept. It depends on your requirements regarding roof insulation (and your personal aesthetic preferences). A properly installed beaver tail tile roof without damage generally does not need to be replaced after 40 years.
schwalbe4 May 2021 11:53
Winniefred schrieb:

It always comes down to personal preferences. If you want to renovate everything fully and minimize consumption as much as possible, you need to invest significantly more money and overhaul everything. Or you decide to only do the necessary work to save a lot of money but then accept higher consumption. It’s more of a fundamental decision.

Definitely. Maybe you can tell from my writing how indecisive I am. At first, we wanted to renew a lot but not everything. After the surveyor slowed me down a bit and suggested leaving a lot as is, I became more cautious. But after figuring out how much funding is actually available, I’m now leaning back towards a full comprehensive renovation. There are many ideas at play—right now I’m tempted by extensive insulation, underfloor heating everywhere, and a hybrid heating system: heat pump with photovoltaic self-consumption, plus a buffer tank connected to a new wood stove with a water jacket.
Asuni schrieb:

Just a brief note about the roof tiles. If I remember correctly, the house is covered with fish scale (biberschwanz) tiles—if they were properly installed and there are no significant weak points or defects in the roof, according to our roofer, such a roof covering can easily last 80 years.

Of course, it depends on what you want—if it’s important for you that the roof is insulated with a breathable underlay membrane, the tiles need to come off. If you’re okay with installing insulation between the rafters and insulating the top floor ceiling, the existing roof covering can remain. It depends on your insulation needs for the roof (and your personal aesthetic preferences). A properly installed fish scale tile roof with no damage does not necessarily have to be replaced after 40 years.

Yes, exactly, fish scale tiles. So far there are no known weak spots, though no one has yet crawled into the small attic space above the top floor. I know the tiles themselves are still durable. If it comes down to insulation between the rafters, they could be kept. For a rafter overlay (external) insulation I assume it’s more sensible to replace the roof covering altogether rather than reuse the old tiles (see also the post with the roof photos). They are moss-covered and might look a bit odd on an otherwise completely “new” house, so aesthetics play a role here. I still need to dig deeper into the whole subsidy issue, but at first glance almost everything seems to be subsidized, so right now I’m tending towards new tiles. And “easily 80 years” also means “possibly” and not “definitely.”

Currently, three strong arguments support the full renovation for me:
1. Only one major construction project, then peace of mind
2. Take advantage of subsidies now. Who knows how things will look in 20 years
3. The technical concept is feasible and one I can truly be satisfied with

I’m going to develop several concepts and then discuss them with an energy consultant familiar with KfW-type funding.
If there’s interest, I’m happy to keep you updated here, though we might need to adjust the thread title.
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Deliverer
4 May 2021 12:10
schwalbe schrieb:

... Hybrid heating system: heat pump combined with photovoltaic self-consumption, plus a buffer tank, to which a new wood stove with a water jacket is also connected.

A heat pump should always be installed without a buffer tank, as it only consumes (a lot of) energy. The additional installation required to integrate (and control) the wood stove alone will cost thousands and will never pay off. On top of that, there is a huge buffer tank and a very expensive stove...
Keep it simple. At most, and only if absolutely necessary, install a small wood stove for ambiance.

You can find more information on this topic in the HTD forum.
schwalbe4 May 2021 13:15
Deliverer schrieb:

Heat pumps should always be used without a buffer tank, which only consumes (a lot of) energy. The additional installation required to integrate (and control) a wood stove alone costs four figures and can never pay off. Plus, there’s a huge buffer tank and a very expensive stove...
Try to keep it simple (KISS). At most, only if absolutely necessary, use a small wood stove for ambiance.

You can find more information on this topic in the HTD forum.

Okay, it seems heat pumps and buffer tanks don’t really go well together. I might have gone a bit overboard ;-)