ᐅ Third-coat plastering without painter’s fleece?

kati1337 schrieb:

Uff, that doesn’t seem particularly cheap to me either.

I agree. We received a Q2 finish from the general contractor (which the painter considered well done for a Q2).
We pay under €6000 (including materials) for our painter. He does minor repairs/filling/sanding, primes the plaster and ceilings with opaque white primer, wallpapers structural fleece, and paints. He also handles some acrylic work on the upper floor.
We skipped Q3 finishing.

We are currently in discussions with our general contractor about this as well...

Standard practice for almost all general contractors is Q2 (meaning only the joints on the ceiling are filled), followed by either textured wallpaper or painter’s fleece. After that, it’s painted. Is this approach effective? Colleagues immediately said: You definitely need to fill the entire ceiling and ideally plaster it before painting. Of course, that would be the best option, but the costs increase significantly.

Do you really see a difference? Is Q2 plus painter’s fleece or textured wallpaper plus paint really that “bad”? As a layperson, would I even notice a difference? I think it would be quite difficult to do yourself if you are not very skilled, especially if the ceiling isn’t fully filled, since unevenness would be visible. Is that how it works? Today, Q2 plus painter’s fleece or textured wallpaper is quite common...

Painter's fleece will highlight every unevenness. Coarser woodchip wallpaper is acceptable even on Q2 surfaces.

So, with Q2 finish, should I choose the coarser textured wallpaper and then paint over it? The downside is that I don't have a completely smooth ceiling, right?
With full skim coat at Q3 or higher, I could also use painter's fleece, and my ceiling would probably be quite smooth, correct?

Is this really noticeable visually? What do you recommend? Do you start from Q2 or Q3 or higher here? Does anyone have rough cost differences per square meter or so?

exto1791 schrieb:

So should you choose the coarser woodchip texture for Q2 and then paint over it? Disadvantage: I don’t have a completely smooth ceiling, right?
With full joint filling at Q3 or higher, I could also use painter’s fleece, and my ceiling would probably be quite smooth, correct?

Both statements are correct.

exto1791 schrieb:

Is this really noticeable visually? What do you recommend? Do you typically use patterns starting from Q2 or Q3 and above? Does anyone have rough cost differences available per m² or so?

That is entirely a matter of personal preference. I have painter’s fleece on all the ceilings and on the walls of the ground floor. In the bedroom, there is a finer woodchip texture, and in the children’s rooms and dressing room, a standard woodchip texture.

Nowadays, textured wallpaper is rarely used in new construction...

I would recommend fully filling and sanding the walls twice and not using any painter’s fleece! Then paint them.
For the ceiling, I would fully fill it, apply painter’s fleece, and then paint it.

This way, you will achieve a great result!

exto1791 schrieb:

We are currently discussing this topic with our general contractor (GC)...

Standard practice with almost all GCs: Q2 finish (meaning only the joints at the ceiling are filled), then a textured wallpaper like "Raufaser" or a painting fleece is applied. Afterwards, it’s painted.

For us, Q2 also included filling all the ceilings by the GC, including the concrete ceiling. Wallpaper was not part of our standard package; that falls under painting work.

exto1791 schrieb:

Is this approach any good? Some colleagues said right away: You definitely have to fill the entire ceiling, ideally plaster it, and then paint it. Of course, that would be the best option, but the costs go through the roof.

Not always. What really drives costs up is moving from Q2 to Q3 with filling and sanding. What exactly would your GC do with your ceilings as standard? Check the scope of work to see in what condition they will hand it over. Anything beyond that requires hiring a painter. We are having this done right now. For the extra painting work beyond the GC’s scope, we have paid about 6000€ (including painting in custom colors).

exto1791 schrieb:

Can you really see a difference? Is Q2 plus painting fleece or textured wallpaper with paint really that "bad"? As a layperson, would I even notice?

Yes! I definitely wouldn’t recommend Q2 plus painting fleece. The Q2 skim coat (and according to our painter, ours was well done) looks smooth to the eye at first. However, applying painting fleece actually highlights imperfections. You can see every little flaw through the fleece wallpaper, and I don’t think that would look good at all. Textured wallpaper like Raufaser, on the other hand, can work if you like that style. But yes, you will definitely notice a difference.

exto1791 schrieb:

I think it must be difficult to do as a DIY project if you’re not very skilled, especially if the ceiling isn’t completely filled because of the unevenness. How should I imagine that? Q2 plus painting fleece or textured wallpaper is quite common these days...

Actually, today it’s common to polish Q2 up to Q3 and then apply painting fleece. Using painting fleece over Q2 alone is rather unusual. So typically, it’s either Q2 plus textured wallpaper, Q3 plus painting fleece (not the very thin kind), or Q4 plus thin painting fleece (or none). The higher the Q-level, the more expensive it gets because it involves a lot more work.

We chose a somewhat unusual hybrid approach.
We received Q2 from the GC — the ceilings were filled by them (this was included in the scope of work). Then we hired a painter ourselves, at a fixed price, to make the entire house "livable."
The painter pre-treated the Q2 surfaces again. Using a professional sander, he smoothed everything a bit more and applied a white primer for wallpaper. Even then, the surface is still not smooth enough for a smooth painting fleece. I’m currently experiencing that with us.
We then chose a wallpaper from a well-known brand named after a German city, a so-called “fleece fiber” wallpaper. These are fleece wallpapers but not smooth painting fleece; instead, they have a texture. This makes them a bit thicker and able to mask small unevenness. After hanging the wallpaper, the painter will paint the entire house in our desired colors.
Today, while hanging around at the house (waiting for my child to settle in daycare and spending a few hours daily on site), I noticed that with our chosen wallpaper in the hallway, at thinner spots (where the texture is less dense), you can still see small grains of the Q2 skim coat. Personally, that doesn’t bother me. But for very perfectionistic people regarding walls, this might be a problem.
Other wallpapers (like the ones we have in the living room) are more heavily textured, so there are fewer “thin” spots and more textured surface area, and you can’t see anything underneath; it looks completely smooth. So it depends a lot on which wallpaper you choose.
Wallpapers can sometimes even emphasize this effect. You can think of it like a little “tent” over the tiny bump.

Recommendation: Visit a hardware or specialty store and feel the wallpapers with your hands. This will give you a much better idea of the material and help you understand what painting fleece is and why it’s not suitable for Q2 plaster.