Hello dear community,
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
J
jens.knoedel5 Jan 2024 11:18RotorMotor schrieb:
Where did you get that nonsense from?
Obviously not from studying or practical experience. Wrong assumption.
RotorMotor schrieb:
And that is wrong too.
It reacts quite quickly. In older buildings you definitely notice quickly when the circuit is closed. In new buildings, not so much. But maybe your experience comes from older buildings.
RotorMotor schrieb:
Apparently, you have no practical experience here either.
My experience: it works just as well as heating!
In winter, when heating, I have a temperature difference (delta T) between inside and outside of sometimes more than 30 degrees Celsius (54°F).
In summer, when cooling, rarely more than 5 or 10 degrees Celsius (9 or 18°F), for example inside 23 and outside 30, which is just a 7 degrees Celsius (13°F) delta T.
That can be cooled away quite easily. Years of personal experience with an air-to-water heat pump and cooling via underfloor heating. Cooling is only possible to a limited extent. Increased humidity is also an issue.
RotorMotor schrieb:
Haha, you’re something else: first you say it can’t be done and is super complicated, then you do it somehow and wonder why it doesn’t work?! Nope, you need to learn to read. Either fully professional with sensors or pragmatically with experience and technical tricks.
RotorMotor schrieb:
But honestly, what’s the point of this discussion?
How can anyone think about making their house smart, spending tens of thousands of euros, and then try to save a hundred for an actuator plus a few tens for control valves just because someone on the internet said “underfloor heating regulates itself”? Well, if your advice for building a house is that it doesn’t matter and you should just buy unnecessary things anyway, then so be it. No wonder people keep complaining about how expensive houses get.
By the way, underfloor heating does not regulate itself. It is properly planned and then needs no further adjustment (provided hydraulic and thermal balancing are done first, in case you want to split hairs). That is not just someone’s opinion, it is state of the art.
R
RotorMotor5 Jan 2024 11:33mr.xyz1 schrieb:
We have switchable outlets, but organized in groups. For example, all outlets for Sonos speakers on the ground floor, an outlet group for entertainment in the living room... This way, unnecessary devices can be turned off when away or sleeping, saving electricity. In my opinion, this is very convenient and practical. Sure, you can definitely come up with use cases to somewhat justify the investment.
I did that at the beginning as well. Calling it convenient is rather "interesting." It’s actually quite annoying when you want to use a device and first have to wait for it to boot up, connect to the network, and then become usable.
Turning off the outlet for an OLED TV is also a very bad idea. It won’t tolerate that for long...
So what remains is maybe saving 2 watts of power consumption. That’s about 2€ per year. And that’s with a KNX system that cost several thousand euros.
Not convinced. ;-)
Everyone always raves about KNX and Smart Home systems, but when I asked around, no one could really give me concrete examples of use cases that actually make sense. At least you put together a nice list. Many things are just nice-to-have, but I don’t see a real benefit. Constantly turning the lights on and off in every room doesn’t really pay off with LEDs anymore. Voice control almost always takes longer than just pressing a switch. For some of the points you listed, KNX isn’t even necessary because the products themselves already offer the functionality.
Here are a few comments from my side:
Here are a few comments from my side:
Schnubbihh schrieb:Hmm, ventilation turning on with the light has existed since the 90s or even longer. What does that have to do with Smart Home? The music part is cool. You probably won’t notice it yourself after a while, but it can impress guests.
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should start playing when presence is detected, and the ventilation should increase if needed
Schnubbihh schrieb:I would never do that. What do you do if you’re sick and can’t or don’t want to speak? What about guests who don’t know the commands? What about children who can’t pronounce the commands properly yet? At a certain volume level, it will be impossible to turn the lights on or off this way. Not to mention that it usually takes much longer than simply pressing a switch.
(9) We want to avoid using switches wherever possible; we prefer voice control or ideally no interaction at all (fully automated)
Schnubbihh schrieb:I guess this is about the noise from the ventilation? Your Smart Home can’t know if you leave the room for 30 seconds or 10 minutes. And if you don’t leave at all, the air remains stale? That doesn’t make sense. Better to have a sensor that alerts you once a certain level is reached. Then you can decide yourself whether to open the windows or turn on the ventilation (via voice command).
(2) CO2 sensors, for example, in the home office to control ventilation based on presence/absence (ventilation at max if I go for a short coffee break and the CO2 level is over X)
Schnubbihh schrieb:Networked smoke detectors are offered by almost every manufacturer and usually make sense in a single-family house. That has nothing to do with automation.
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system + to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
Schnubbihh schrieb:That won’t work in practice. Or should it start every time you have guests or someone just goes outside to take out the trash?
(4) Vacuum cleaning robot in the hallway that starts automatically when someone enters or leaves the house (dirt in the hallway)
Schnubbihh schrieb:Weather and time of day shouldn’t be a problem. You’re not in the garden 24/7 anyway, so just set a time and that’s it.
(5) Lawn mower that only runs in certain weather and when nobody is in the garden
Schnubbihh schrieb:Equipping irrigation with sensors basically makes sense.
(6) Automatic garden irrigation based on weather forecast (rainwater tank planned)
Schnubbihh schrieb:Are your days always the same? Ours aren’t. There are holidays, sometimes there’s a shower after sports, or sometimes before going to bed in the evening. So it would have to be on almost all the time.
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to turn on/off as needed (e.g. warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
Schnubbihh schrieb:We do that with Alexa.
(8) “Speaker announcement” from the kitchen to all children’s rooms (“dinner is ready”)
FloHB123 schrieb:
Hmm, ventilation turning on with the light has existed since the ’90s or even earlier. What does that have to do with Smart Home?Try linking the light switch logically with the controlled ventilation system without Smart Home, and you’ll see why it’s challenging.
FloHB123 schrieb:
Is this about the noise from the ventilation system? Your Smart Home can’t know whether you leave the room for 30 seconds or 10 minutes. And if you don’t leave at all, the air remains bad? That doesn’t make sense. It’s better to have a sensor that triggers a notification when a certain value is reached. Then you can decide whether to open the window or turn on the ventilation (by voice control).Smart Home also means smart programming—for example, you can link two sensor outputs logically, such as VOC (volatile organic compounds) and presence detection, to trigger different scenarios. For instance, if “presence detected” & “VOC outside thresholds” → controlled ventilation at level 2 out of 4, or if “no presence detected” & “VOC outside thresholds” → controlled ventilation at level 4 out of 4.
Whether this approach makes sense in this particular case can be discussed later.
FloHB123 schrieb:
Do your days run the same way? Ours don’t. There are school holidays, sometimes a shower after sports, or occasionally before going to bed in the evening. So the ventilation would have to be on almost all the time.A sensor measuring humidity can reliably detect when someone is showering (even more reliably with a flow sensor on the relevant plumbing). Then, for example, a switch actuator can automatically turn on the radiator, except when—for instance—the weather station reports above 15°C (59°F) outside temperature and/or window contact sensors show windows as open or tilted.
As you can see, Smart Home only becomes “smart” if you can reliably measure different conditions and link them in a meaningful way.
S
Schnubbihh5 Jan 2024 17:03FloHB123 schrieb:
This won’t work in practice. Or are you expecting it to start every time you have visitors or someone just steps outside to take out the trash?For me, this is actually one of the “coolest” features. We have a relatively long hallway with several meters before the coat rack. Regular vacuuming and mopping here can prevent dirt from spreading further into the house. This could also mean running the vacuum after taking out the trash. Since the area is quite small, the vacuum/mop would be done in about 5 minutes. The function could also be linked to a button at the exit or a voice command like “Alexa, goodbye,” so the robot doesn’t start up for every little thing. You just have to test what works best in your routine.