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Schnubbihh2 Jan 2024 12:28Hello dear community,
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
we are just beginning to explore the topic of Smart Home and I would appreciate your opinions on our current (early) planning.
Starting point:
- New build of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1720 sq ft) of living space, 3 children’s bedrooms + home office
- Building permit / planning permission currently pending; construction start planned for spring
- I would like to create and customize the Smart Home logic myself; I am willing to study it in depth and enjoy the topic
Planned automation:
(1) Starting with very simple functions such as automatic lights on/off with presence detection for 6 rooms (WC, utility room, storage room, upstairs and downstairs hallway, staircase)
(2) In the guest bathroom, music should also turn on with presence detection and possibly increase ventilation slightly
(3) Throughout the entire upper floor (6 rooms), a night light should turn on at night when movement is detected (e.g., for nighttime bathroom visits)
(4) All blinds / shutters (16x) should be controllable individually (based on time or sun position)
(5) All windows/doors (17x) equipped with tilt sensors to detect open windows, e.g., warnings in case of rain, alerts when the house is left, simple alarm system
(6) Front door with electric lock and video doorbell
(7) Underfloor heating digitally controllable per room
(8) Simple outdoor automations for lighting (motion sensors) and cameras
(9) We want to avoid push buttons wherever possible; we prefer voice control or even better fully automated operation without any interaction
Still open / to discuss:
(1) Hot water and circulation only at certain times or when someone is at home (is this financially worthwhile with efficient heat pumps at all?)
(2) CO2 sensors, for example in the home office, to control ventilation based on presence/absence (e.g., ventilation set to maximum if I quickly leave for coffee and the CO2 value exceeds a certain threshold)
(3) Networked smoke detectors as an alarm system and to hear a fire alarm from the ground floor in the bedroom (?)
(4) Robot vacuum cleaner in the hallway that starts automatically when entering or leaving the house (to clean dirt in the hallway)
(5) Lawn mower that only operates under certain weather conditions and when no one is in the garden
(6) Automatic garden irrigation depending on the forecasted weather (cistern planned)
(7) Towel heater in the bathroom to switch on/off selectively (e.g., warm bathroom in the morning, warm towels right after showering)
(8) "Public address" system from the kitchen to all children’s bedrooms (“Dinner is ready”)
Questions:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far?
(2) Do you have any comments and/or recommendations regarding the open points? Are there any interesting automations we are missing?
(3) What is the best way to plan such a Smart Home with a general contractor? They only offer a lump sum package through their electrician with a “Smart@Home” system. I would prefer to plan with a specialized electrician. Is it possible to exclude this trade from the contract and award it separately, or would this cause problems?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that a KNX wired system would be suitable for the above use cases? As a comparison, I roughly calculated Homematic IP flush-mounted installation costs between 5,000–10,000€ as an additional investment (besides the standard general contractor electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider whether I am willing to spend 30,000€+ on KNX.
(5) Is it realistically possible in such a Smart Home to almost completely do without push buttons in the rooms? (We find voice control much more convenient and currently use a lot of Alexa)
Schnubbihh schrieb:
(1) Do the planned automations make sense so far? Yes, there’s nothing unreasonable in there.
Schnubbihh schrieb:
(3) What is the best way to plan a smart home with a general contractor (GC)? They only offer a flat-rate package with their electrician under "Smart@Home." I would prefer to work with a specialized electrician. Can the electrical trade be excluded from the contract and contracted separately, or would that cause problems? From my professional experience, I have only encountered one GC electrician who was truly open to individual solutions and knowledgeable. The background is that workflows in GC projects are usually very tightly scheduled, and customer-specific requests are often unwelcome because they tend to delay everything. This is because GC electricians and the GC business mostly operate on a strict “take it or leave it” basis, working with pre-calculated standard solutions. You can work with a specialized electrician or better yet a system integrator, but they must fit absolutely reliably into the construction schedule set or coordinated with the GC. Flat-rate packages in this context are usually just standard installations with expensive switches.
Schnubbihh schrieb:
(4) Am I right to assume that for the use cases mentioned, a KNX wiring system would be suitable? I roughly calculated the example of Homematic IP as an embedded solution and came to an additional investment of 5,000–10,000€ (besides the standard GC electrical work). How could I make a reasonable cost estimate for KNX? Background: If a wireless solution costs me 10,000€, I want to carefully consider if I am willing to spend 30,000€+ for KNX. KNX is always a good choice, especially because it is manufacturer-independent and offers almost tens of thousands of devices from several hundred manufacturers for every requirement — not just what a single proprietary system currently offers. If you want to tie yourself to the consumer technology of one manufacturer for the lifetime of your house, you can do that, of course. But it’s unwise. And it is equally unwise to rely on wireless in new construction.
Schnubbihh schrieb:
(5) Is it realistic in such a smart home to almost completely do without wall switches in the rooms? (We find voice control much more comfortable and currently use a lot of Alexa.) Sure, you can do that. But in my opinion, it makes less sense. What do you do if there is a problem with the Wi-Fi or internet connection? Will your Alexa still work, and can you still turn the lights on? What about guests? Besides, you still need to measure temperatures somewhere for heating control. This is almost always done with push-button sensors in KNX. And anyone who has tried to control Alexa while holding a crying child wishes they had switches. Presence detectors can cover many functions but not everything. You need someone with real experience for this, because it’s much more than just turning on a light when there’s movement — it needs to be comfortable and not annoying.
In general, your requirements suggest using a KNX system for the basics (i.e., hardware and critical functions) and then layering some server on top for logic or integrating third-party devices. There are several options like Home Assistant, Control4, Basalte, or for nostalgic masochists, the Homeserver. It all depends on how much you want to tinker yourself or how much money you want to pay someone. I can’t judge your skills here, but for such a project — if you want it to be fun in the end — it’s highly recommended to involve someone truly capable who knows the possibilities and pitfalls and can design it for you. The GC electrician is the very last person to ask; at best, they can lay cables according to specifications. But they usually have no motivation to do this because they can no longer charge 100€ per socket that way.
Schnubbihh schrieb:
- New construction of a single-family house with a general contractor, approximately 160m² (1,722 sq ft) of living space, 3 children's rooms plus a study
- Currently waiting for the building permit / planning permission; construction planned to start in spring General contractor ... how exactly ... I can’t recall that in your main thread (please link it yourself!) we had already reached a decision for one of the general contractors discussed (?)
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
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Schnubbihh2 Jan 2024 14:1511ant schrieb:
General contractor ... what exactly ... I don’t recall that we had already reached a decision for one of the discussed general contractors in your main thread (please link it yourself!) (?) Yes, indeed. I forgot to post an update here in the forum. Just fixed that:
Schnubbihh schrieb:
A small update from our side:
We have chosen a general contractor and, with that, a floor plan that felt best for us overall.
We also rotated the house on the plot for better garden use, closer location of the utility room to the street, and a more convenient position of the carport. Thanks for the helpful input!
The building permit (planning permission) application has been submitted and now we’re waiting for processing (which could take several months...). Araknis schrieb:
What do you do when you have a problem with the Wi-Fi or internet connection? Would your Alexa still work, and could you still turn on the lights? What about guests? Besides, for heating control, you also need to measure the temperatures somewhere. With KNX systems, this is almost always done using push-button sensors. And anyone who has ever tried to operate an Alexa while holding a crying child wishes for physical buttons. Well, that’s the difference between Sabrina, Kelly, and Jill and Alexa, Siri, and Cortana – some things really were better in the past ;-)
Being able to operate smart home systems with "analog controllers" as an alternative is the real highlight of smart home design.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
First of all, congratulations! Seriously! You have understood more of the core concept of Smart Home than 90% of others (including many manufacturers of supposedly smart products)!!!
Most of your requests make ABSOLUTE sense! The only thing I would question is door sensors, if you mean interior doors, as I really see little benefit there (but presumably you don’t mean interior doors, although I have definitely seen/heard of that). You can still find uses for them, but that gets quite extensive. The heating control is also questionable, but that depends on your heating system and whether it is worthwhile or not.
I would also like to question the price comparison between Homematic and KNX. Is it 5–10k purely for components? An electrician who installs and programs/configures it will also charge money here. In what for me is a standard reference book for home automation with KNX and others, there is an example calculation that, as far as I recall, covers a similar or even larger scope regarding your requirements with KNX and DALI, where costs of around 15k are indicated, though the prices are a few years old and the scope would need to be properly compared rather than recalled from memory. The initial costs for KNX are naturally higher compared to most other systems. But the more you network, the more cost-effective it becomes overall.
So, that should answer (1) and (4).
(2) Consider keyless entry, mailbox monitoring, calendars for waste collection or other topics, energy monitoring for circuits like washing machines or refrigerators for detecting whether they are finished or malfunctioning, calling up scenes (sleep mode → no doorbell, shower time → towel radiator, ... just ideas, not requirements!!!)
(3) You will unfortunately have to clarify yourself how capable and willing your general contractor’s electrician is or how you might remove or adjust that from the contract.
(5) … this again depends on your lifestyle and your wishes. A significant reduction is definitely possible. Completely foregoing it is probably a hard bargain.
Most of your requests make ABSOLUTE sense! The only thing I would question is door sensors, if you mean interior doors, as I really see little benefit there (but presumably you don’t mean interior doors, although I have definitely seen/heard of that). You can still find uses for them, but that gets quite extensive. The heating control is also questionable, but that depends on your heating system and whether it is worthwhile or not.
I would also like to question the price comparison between Homematic and KNX. Is it 5–10k purely for components? An electrician who installs and programs/configures it will also charge money here. In what for me is a standard reference book for home automation with KNX and others, there is an example calculation that, as far as I recall, covers a similar or even larger scope regarding your requirements with KNX and DALI, where costs of around 15k are indicated, though the prices are a few years old and the scope would need to be properly compared rather than recalled from memory. The initial costs for KNX are naturally higher compared to most other systems. But the more you network, the more cost-effective it becomes overall.
So, that should answer (1) and (4).
(2) Consider keyless entry, mailbox monitoring, calendars for waste collection or other topics, energy monitoring for circuits like washing machines or refrigerators for detecting whether they are finished or malfunctioning, calling up scenes (sleep mode → no doorbell, shower time → towel radiator, ... just ideas, not requirements!!!)
(3) You will unfortunately have to clarify yourself how capable and willing your general contractor’s electrician is or how you might remove or adjust that from the contract.
(5) … this again depends on your lifestyle and your wishes. A significant reduction is definitely possible. Completely foregoing it is probably a hard bargain.
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