Hello, we currently have a somewhat unusual problem. We hired a carpenter to install a staircase, who had done some work on the house before and was generally okay. The removal of the old staircase and installation of the new one were supposed to happen on the same day.
To my surprise, the man showed up alone. I thought, okay, maybe his colleague would come later, but instead he said, "Can you hold this for a moment?" and shortly after, "Can you give me a quick hand here?" My husband is easygoing, and we realized the man wouldn’t be able to manage on his own. At the same time, the staircase needed to be installed urgently, and we just wanted to get the job done.
In the end, my husband spent half the working day helping, and the carpenter still didn’t manage to complete the installation; there simply wasn’t enough time (to be precise, he didn’t even start installing). As for removing the old staircase, a lot was left unfinished as well.
So, he left us without a staircase, though at least there was a ladder in the opening, allowing us access to the upper floor, and he said he would come back “some time,” as he was very busy at the moment... Some time later, when it was about scheduling the installation, I gently asked if he planned to bring a second person, since helping out wasn’t agreed upon. He said that if we didn’t want to help, he could bring his neighbor “for a small extra fee,” as the neighbor owed him a favor...
We found this whole situation completely outrageous and told him that we would give the job to someone else. We had not agreed to help; the contract was for the carpenter to handle the removal and installation completely by himself, for which he was being paid. Having neighbors working here unofficially would hardly be acceptable.
The end result was that he charged us double for the removal, including the cost of a temporary railing at the stairwell to prevent falls (in my opinion, it is his responsibility to secure the site if he leaves it half finished, which was already a breach of contract). He took the wood for this from us but still charged us for it, which completely crossed the line.
Under no circumstances do I see any reason to pay him the agreed fee for removal since he had us help for hours and only completed part of the work himself. After I told him this, he said he would immediately take the matter to a lawyer. I have already sent the corrected invoice (which I adjusted myself: deducting 40% of the labor cost, removing the railing costs and the wood) and will see what he does. But I suspect this carpenter deserves the “Golden Raspberry” of the trade in 2014.
I don’t have a direct question, as this is not a legal advice forum. But I am curious if any of you have ever experienced something like this, or as a tradesperson have expected or demanded (or included from the start) that the client acts as a free helper.
To my surprise, the man showed up alone. I thought, okay, maybe his colleague would come later, but instead he said, "Can you hold this for a moment?" and shortly after, "Can you give me a quick hand here?" My husband is easygoing, and we realized the man wouldn’t be able to manage on his own. At the same time, the staircase needed to be installed urgently, and we just wanted to get the job done.
In the end, my husband spent half the working day helping, and the carpenter still didn’t manage to complete the installation; there simply wasn’t enough time (to be precise, he didn’t even start installing). As for removing the old staircase, a lot was left unfinished as well.
So, he left us without a staircase, though at least there was a ladder in the opening, allowing us access to the upper floor, and he said he would come back “some time,” as he was very busy at the moment... Some time later, when it was about scheduling the installation, I gently asked if he planned to bring a second person, since helping out wasn’t agreed upon. He said that if we didn’t want to help, he could bring his neighbor “for a small extra fee,” as the neighbor owed him a favor...
We found this whole situation completely outrageous and told him that we would give the job to someone else. We had not agreed to help; the contract was for the carpenter to handle the removal and installation completely by himself, for which he was being paid. Having neighbors working here unofficially would hardly be acceptable.
The end result was that he charged us double for the removal, including the cost of a temporary railing at the stairwell to prevent falls (in my opinion, it is his responsibility to secure the site if he leaves it half finished, which was already a breach of contract). He took the wood for this from us but still charged us for it, which completely crossed the line.
Under no circumstances do I see any reason to pay him the agreed fee for removal since he had us help for hours and only completed part of the work himself. After I told him this, he said he would immediately take the matter to a lawyer. I have already sent the corrected invoice (which I adjusted myself: deducting 40% of the labor cost, removing the railing costs and the wood) and will see what he does. But I suspect this carpenter deserves the “Golden Raspberry” of the trade in 2014.
I don’t have a direct question, as this is not a legal advice forum. But I am curious if any of you have ever experienced something like this, or as a tradesperson have expected or demanded (or included from the start) that the client acts as a free helper.
If he didn’t want the job, he could have declined it. It’s still a free country where no one is forced to do anything. The fact that the staircase was made by another carpenter was known beforehand, and the craftsman freely submitted his offer at that exact price.
We had three other offers for the installation, all roughly the same price. So this doesn’t seem to be an unusual labor cost in the market. We chose this craftsman because we already knew him from the window replacement—he did a solid job there.
Construction expert, this sounds as if the “usual” platforms were something sinister. We have hired several craftsmen through them, and it has (almost) always worked out well. These were all local companies that we would otherwise have had to contact laboriously by phone. Posting an ad—and that’s all MyHammer etc. is—is simply more relaxed because the craftsmen reach out if they have the time and interest in the job.
What is the downside of that?
We had three other offers for the installation, all roughly the same price. So this doesn’t seem to be an unusual labor cost in the market. We chose this craftsman because we already knew him from the window replacement—he did a solid job there.
Construction expert, this sounds as if the “usual” platforms were something sinister. We have hired several craftsmen through them, and it has (almost) always worked out well. These were all local companies that we would otherwise have had to contact laboriously by phone. Posting an ad—and that’s all MyHammer etc. is—is simply more relaxed because the craftsmen reach out if they have the time and interest in the job.
What is the downside of that?
Elina schrieb:
It’s simply more relaxed there because the contractors get in touch, have the time, and are interested in the job.
What’s wrong with that?Well ... interest...
I once submitted my offers there myself as a photographer. Fortunately, I am not dependent on this side job, because with absolute dumping prices that definitely ruin the market and the livelihood of self-employed people by some hobby photographers, the work is no longer enjoyable. There is no respect earned through a proper price-performance ratio.
I got one assignment, and MyHammer earned a commission too – but at that dumping price, I wasn’t willing to work on small details as I usually would.
This is probably reflected in other tradespeople too – you can tell, after all.
And regarding the first question: yes, we were sometimes asked to lend a hand. But only occasionally since we were also on the construction site. In return, the contractors would sometimes lend us a tool for the electrical installation or carry the carpet roll upstairs, for example.
We were definitely not planned as general helpers.
Koempy schrieb:
Why didn’t the carpenter who made the staircase install it?Because the carpenter’s workshop is about 600 km (375 miles) further north from us. He was the only one who submitted a quote for a staircase exactly as we wanted it. The other offers were either outrageously expensive (6,000 Euros for a secondary staircase is simply unacceptable) or involved some compromise we didn’t want to make, such as not having a bullnose, missing risers, having too narrow treads, or a clear varnish finish.
However, I haven’t had any bad experiences with this approach so far. The heating system (boiler) was sold to me by company A and installed by company B (although B was recommended by A), same with the air conditioning (purchased at a large retailer, installed by a local HVAC company, everything went smoothly), and also the front door (made by a carpenter in Bavaria, installed locally by nearby carpenters). In each case, I searched for the installer before placing the order. It was the same with the staircase. I wouldn’t buy it unless I found someone to install it afterwards. If I hadn’t found an installer for the staircase, it probably would have been a kit staircase with a central stringer.
If you always have to be so penny-wise, this kind of thing is bound to happen.
Of course, it’s somewhat cheeky on the part of the carpenter who did the installation to involve you like this. But you did get involved, and he expects to be paid for his work. If he dismantled the staircase (even with your help), he deserves to receive his wage for it. And since he installed the fall protection, why shouldn’t he cover the cost? He, of course, should not charge for the materials used.
Of course, it’s somewhat cheeky on the part of the carpenter who did the installation to involve you like this. But you did get involved, and he expects to be paid for his work. If he dismantled the staircase (even with your help), he deserves to receive his wage for it. And since he installed the fall protection, why shouldn’t he cover the cost? He, of course, should not charge for the materials used.
E.Curb schrieb:
..... so why shouldn’t he pay for it then? Of course, I meant "to get paid"........ being able to write clearly is definitely an advantage
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