Hello, we currently have a somewhat unusual problem. We hired a carpenter to install a staircase, who had done some work on the house before and was generally okay. The removal of the old staircase and installation of the new one were supposed to happen on the same day.
To my surprise, the man showed up alone. I thought, okay, maybe his colleague would come later, but instead he said, "Can you hold this for a moment?" and shortly after, "Can you give me a quick hand here?" My husband is easygoing, and we realized the man wouldn’t be able to manage on his own. At the same time, the staircase needed to be installed urgently, and we just wanted to get the job done.
In the end, my husband spent half the working day helping, and the carpenter still didn’t manage to complete the installation; there simply wasn’t enough time (to be precise, he didn’t even start installing). As for removing the old staircase, a lot was left unfinished as well.
So, he left us without a staircase, though at least there was a ladder in the opening, allowing us access to the upper floor, and he said he would come back “some time,” as he was very busy at the moment... Some time later, when it was about scheduling the installation, I gently asked if he planned to bring a second person, since helping out wasn’t agreed upon. He said that if we didn’t want to help, he could bring his neighbor “for a small extra fee,” as the neighbor owed him a favor...
We found this whole situation completely outrageous and told him that we would give the job to someone else. We had not agreed to help; the contract was for the carpenter to handle the removal and installation completely by himself, for which he was being paid. Having neighbors working here unofficially would hardly be acceptable.
The end result was that he charged us double for the removal, including the cost of a temporary railing at the stairwell to prevent falls (in my opinion, it is his responsibility to secure the site if he leaves it half finished, which was already a breach of contract). He took the wood for this from us but still charged us for it, which completely crossed the line.
Under no circumstances do I see any reason to pay him the agreed fee for removal since he had us help for hours and only completed part of the work himself. After I told him this, he said he would immediately take the matter to a lawyer. I have already sent the corrected invoice (which I adjusted myself: deducting 40% of the labor cost, removing the railing costs and the wood) and will see what he does. But I suspect this carpenter deserves the “Golden Raspberry” of the trade in 2014.
I don’t have a direct question, as this is not a legal advice forum. But I am curious if any of you have ever experienced something like this, or as a tradesperson have expected or demanded (or included from the start) that the client acts as a free helper.
To my surprise, the man showed up alone. I thought, okay, maybe his colleague would come later, but instead he said, "Can you hold this for a moment?" and shortly after, "Can you give me a quick hand here?" My husband is easygoing, and we realized the man wouldn’t be able to manage on his own. At the same time, the staircase needed to be installed urgently, and we just wanted to get the job done.
In the end, my husband spent half the working day helping, and the carpenter still didn’t manage to complete the installation; there simply wasn’t enough time (to be precise, he didn’t even start installing). As for removing the old staircase, a lot was left unfinished as well.
So, he left us without a staircase, though at least there was a ladder in the opening, allowing us access to the upper floor, and he said he would come back “some time,” as he was very busy at the moment... Some time later, when it was about scheduling the installation, I gently asked if he planned to bring a second person, since helping out wasn’t agreed upon. He said that if we didn’t want to help, he could bring his neighbor “for a small extra fee,” as the neighbor owed him a favor...
We found this whole situation completely outrageous and told him that we would give the job to someone else. We had not agreed to help; the contract was for the carpenter to handle the removal and installation completely by himself, for which he was being paid. Having neighbors working here unofficially would hardly be acceptable.
The end result was that he charged us double for the removal, including the cost of a temporary railing at the stairwell to prevent falls (in my opinion, it is his responsibility to secure the site if he leaves it half finished, which was already a breach of contract). He took the wood for this from us but still charged us for it, which completely crossed the line.
Under no circumstances do I see any reason to pay him the agreed fee for removal since he had us help for hours and only completed part of the work himself. After I told him this, he said he would immediately take the matter to a lawyer. I have already sent the corrected invoice (which I adjusted myself: deducting 40% of the labor cost, removing the railing costs and the wood) and will see what he does. But I suspect this carpenter deserves the “Golden Raspberry” of the trade in 2014.
I don’t have a direct question, as this is not a legal advice forum. But I am curious if any of you have ever experienced something like this, or as a tradesperson have expected or demanded (or included from the start) that the client acts as a free helper.
I can understand Elina’s frustration. I also don’t get why it’s always such a problem to source the materials yourself (at least when warranty issues are ruled out). The contractor has a certain amount of work to do and gets paid for that. That’s fair. What isn’t fair is hiding costs within the material. Based on your description, the contractor didn’t deliver the agreed service here, so why should they be paid in full?
H
HilfeHilfe12 Dec 2014 07:26This seems to be a legal dispute. I’m curious to see what will happen.
This is turning out to be a rather complex case.
This is turning out to be a rather complex case.
What is complex about this? Elina commissioned the installation, but the contractor did not complete it.
If he accepts the reduced invoice, the matter is settled. If not, he can sue for the remaining amount – however, the claim value is so low that the legal fees will likely exceed any settlement (which is probably to Elina’s advantage, in my opinion). So, the lawsuit would only be filed for the sake of filing, and only the lawyer stands to gain.
Best regards,
Dirk Grafe
If he accepts the reduced invoice, the matter is settled. If not, he can sue for the remaining amount – however, the claim value is so low that the legal fees will likely exceed any settlement (which is probably to Elina’s advantage, in my opinion). So, the lawsuit would only be filed for the sake of filing, and only the lawyer stands to gain.
Best regards,
Dirk Grafe
B
Bauexperte12 Dec 2014 12:25Hello,
I wonder why you did not inquire directly about the respective products including installation from local trades companies? That way, the question of warranty would not even arise, which in a worst-case scenario could lead to rather complex situations.
If this continues in this country, we will soon end up like the old pattern: it is all about organizing and knowing someone who knows their way around. Because with this customer-is-king approach, many trades companies will not be able to keep up and will have to file for bankruptcy. The well-known consequences will affect employees, tradespeople, and their families.
Regards, Bauexperte
Elina schrieb:Yvonne has described it well from her experience. These platforms shift the price/performance ratio in a direction that can only be unhealthy in the long term and will likely lead to insolvencies as a consequence. The prices offered there are almost uniformly at the lower limit; they have to be. Therefore, your statement "We had three other offers for the installation that were all roughly the same price. So this does not seem to be an unusual market wage" is misleading, as these prices are far from market standard and that is exactly the purpose of these platforms.
Bauexperte, it sounds like you are implying that the “usual” platforms are some kind of evil. We have recruited several tradespeople through them and it has (almost) always worked well. These were all local companies that we would have otherwise had to call around to find. Placing an ad – which is exactly what MyHammer and similar sites do – is simply more convenient because the tradespeople who have the time and interest respond. What’s the downside?
I wonder why you did not inquire directly about the respective products including installation from local trades companies? That way, the question of warranty would not even arise, which in a worst-case scenario could lead to rather complex situations.
Ben1000 schrieb:Nothing is hidden; it is standard practice to base the pricing on a mixed calculation. Why should that be unfair? No one can seriously expect tradespeople to sell products at cost to cover their equity, work almost for free, and still provide full warranty coverage (which is more or less encouraged by the platforms in question).
What is not fair is hiding costs within the materials.
If this continues in this country, we will soon end up like the old pattern: it is all about organizing and knowing someone who knows their way around. Because with this customer-is-king approach, many trades companies will not be able to keep up and will have to file for bankruptcy. The well-known consequences will affect employees, tradespeople, and their families.
Regards, Bauexperte
B
Bauexperte12 Dec 2014 12:32Hello Dirk,
I see it as a confirmation that in the end, everyone gets what they deserve. And that’s a good thing.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Dirk Grafe schrieb:I wouldn’t be so sure about that; you have to remember that here (on the forum) only Elina’s perspective is presented. But every story has two sides.
... which is probably the case here and tends to favor Elina – at least in my opinion)
I see it as a confirmation that in the end, everyone gets what they deserve. And that’s a good thing.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Similar topics