Hello,
We are currently trying to decide which type of facade construction is preferable. The two facade options are as follows. It is assumed that the costs are the same, and any gains or losses in space can be neglected. The focus is solely on the advantages and disadvantages of the facade construction itself.
1.) 17.5 cm (7 inches) Poroton, mineral wool insulation, facing bricks. Total construction depth 44 cm (17 inches)
2.) 36.5 cm (14 inches) Poroton, brick slips. Total construction depth approximately 38.5 cm (15 inches)
In both cases, the result is a KfW 55 standard.
Is it possible to determine which construction is more valuable? Please explain.
Best regards,
Ralf
We are currently trying to decide which type of facade construction is preferable. The two facade options are as follows. It is assumed that the costs are the same, and any gains or losses in space can be neglected. The focus is solely on the advantages and disadvantages of the facade construction itself.
1.) 17.5 cm (7 inches) Poroton, mineral wool insulation, facing bricks. Total construction depth 44 cm (17 inches)
2.) 36.5 cm (14 inches) Poroton, brick slips. Total construction depth approximately 38.5 cm (15 inches)
In both cases, the result is a KfW 55 standard.
Is it possible to determine which construction is more valuable? Please explain.
Best regards,
Ralf
Thank you for the detailed and interesting responses!
I also don’t think that every single thread has to cover all possible options so that someone googling a keyword at any time immediately gets a comprehensive understanding of the topic. Due to ongoing developments, that simply isn’t feasible. And anyone who reads only this thread and tries to build their house based solely on the information exchanged here is, in any case, difficult to assist.
@11ant
Otherwise, I just briefly explained again to tommifc why these variants are relevant to me. Of course, this is my personal opinion, and it’s understandable that others may have different views...
Am I correct in assuming that you mixed up the numbers of my variants in the last part of your post? Because variant 1 does have an air layer! I simply left it out because I considered it obvious. As a mock-up of the U-value calculation, I would have understood the 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) Poroton variant better since it is a monolithic construction method, which, at least here in the far north, doesn’t have much of a tradition in this form (unlike brick cladding).
But feel free to elaborate if you think further explanation is needed, as you seem much more technically knowledgeable than I am.
Otherwise, my decision is based less on a U-value table and more on a few arguments as well as the feeling and impression that Poroton is a nice building material.
By the way, I’ve already ruled out a plastered facade for myself because I simply like the appearance of brick cladding.
So only the two variants I described remain, and the question is which variant offers more value in terms of quality and maybe also durability at the same price.
Regards
I also don’t think that every single thread has to cover all possible options so that someone googling a keyword at any time immediately gets a comprehensive understanding of the topic. Due to ongoing developments, that simply isn’t feasible. And anyone who reads only this thread and tries to build their house based solely on the information exchanged here is, in any case, difficult to assist.
@11ant
Otherwise, I just briefly explained again to tommifc why these variants are relevant to me. Of course, this is my personal opinion, and it’s understandable that others may have different views...
Am I correct in assuming that you mixed up the numbers of my variants in the last part of your post? Because variant 1 does have an air layer! I simply left it out because I considered it obvious. As a mock-up of the U-value calculation, I would have understood the 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) Poroton variant better since it is a monolithic construction method, which, at least here in the far north, doesn’t have much of a tradition in this form (unlike brick cladding).
But feel free to elaborate if you think further explanation is needed, as you seem much more technically knowledgeable than I am.
Otherwise, my decision is based less on a U-value table and more on a few arguments as well as the feeling and impression that Poroton is a nice building material.
By the way, I’ve already ruled out a plastered facade for myself because I simply like the appearance of brick cladding.
So only the two variants I described remain, and the question is which variant offers more value in terms of quality and maybe also durability at the same price.
Regards
Roppo schrieb:
Of course, it is my personal opinion and others may have different views...No, unfortunately not. In almost all specialist forums (on nearly all topics), you encounter people who believe the questioner must be taught what is "right." That is why I have explicitly emphasized once again that as the builder, you have the right to focus only on two options without being forced into lectures about the rest of the market variety not covered there.
Roppo schrieb:
Am I correct in assuming that you mixed up the numbers of my variants in the last part of your post?Sort of—I assigned the numbers correctly, but reversed the order, meaning I deliberately addressed "2." first.
Roppo schrieb:
Because Variant 1 has an air layer! I just omitted it because I considered it obvious.I also consider that obvious because, in my opinion, it is the only proper way—although some suppliers have recently taken a different approach. Therefore, despite the 44cm (17 inches), I assumed your supplier might want to do something without an air layer. The air layers used in older constructions have sometimes been filled with blown-in insulation beads. That means air only remains between the beads, but no longer as a continuous "air film." This has led some suppliers to the (in my opinion nonsensical) idea of completely filling such cavities with mineral wool or fiberglass boards. I have no objection to boards—they were used before—but please maintain an air layer (in my opinion useful above approximately 4cm (1.5 inches)).
Roppo schrieb:
As the result of the U-value calculation, I would rather have understood the 36.5cm (14 inches) Poroton, since it is a monolithic construction method that at least here in the far North does not have a long-standing tradition (unlike the brick façade).By "result," I mean the currently very fashionable approach of specifying a target U-value and then calculating exactly how much masonry can be replaced by insulation boards to hit that target perfectly. I call it a "result" because it is calculated purely at Dr. Frankenstein’s desk without any understanding of building physics. I did not mean whether the building material has more or less tradition in this manufacturing method.
Roppo schrieb:
Otherwise, my decision is based less on a U-value table than on some arguments and also on the feeling and impression that Poroton is a nice building material.I have not yet recognized how much of your question comes from your own research and how much from the "my supplier only offers two daily menus—please recommend the lesser evil" angle.
Roppo schrieb:
and therefore the question of which variant delivers more value or perhaps durability at the same price.I see no fundamental difference: both wall types can be executed properly—if the supplier has significantly more experience with one of them, I would choose that one. I am not aware of any buyer or other evaluators underestimating thin brick veneers compared to full bricks. Since both have their own application scenarios, veneers are not regarded as a cheap alternative but rather as a retrofit option or plaster alternative. Only fake veneers, meaning imitation thin bricks nailed in sheets onto battens, are considered cheap.
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K
Knallkörper23 Mar 2017 19:40The core insulation with mineral wool, meaning without a true air gap, is physically absolutely acceptable in my view. There is also a very insightful study on this by the Fraunhofer Institute.
Knallkörper schrieb:
There is also a very insightful study by the Fraunhofer Institute on this topic.Ah yes, thank you. I just looked it up. It does indeed read as interesting and credible. It seems to have been written by experts (though even among professionals there are sometimes differing opinions, this study takes an objective approach).
What is specifically relevant for the person asking here, summarized briefly: an air gap is only effective if executed properly. If the core insulation does not absorb moisture, it can be installed without an air gap; otherwise, the usual open joints for ventilation can actually turn into points of moisture ingress and are therefore not recommended.
What I found in this and other search results was a further note that brick slips as a substitute for a full facing brick outer layer directly in front of an insulation layer are not suitable, as they do not protect it adequately. No one would probably consider this for fiber mats anyway, but some might for foam boards.
However, for installation instead of plaster on a single-layer wall, brick slips are suitable (and designed) for that purpose.
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Thank you again for the informative post!
As I mentioned earlier, I first researched different facade types and stones, and then found a builder that fits those criteria. Of course, the facade construction is an important aspect, but it is not the only decisive factor in such a project.
I believe that both options are basically good, which is why both are suitable for me. Regarding the brick slips, these are genuine, high-quality brick slips with corner pieces, so there should be no visible difference in appearance later on.
While this might not be particularly helpful for answering the question, the builder is generally quite versatile and offers other solutions as well – although these are not relevant here and therefore have no place in this discussion.
As I mentioned earlier, I first researched different facade types and stones, and then found a builder that fits those criteria. Of course, the facade construction is an important aspect, but it is not the only decisive factor in such a project.
I believe that both options are basically good, which is why both are suitable for me. Regarding the brick slips, these are genuine, high-quality brick slips with corner pieces, so there should be no visible difference in appearance later on.
While this might not be particularly helpful for answering the question, the builder is generally quite versatile and offers other solutions as well – although these are not relevant here and therefore have no place in this discussion.
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