Hello,
we are planning to purchase a single-family house.
Here are some details:
Year built: 1957
Living area: 130 m² (1400 sq ft) / basement
Plot size: 830 m² (0.2 acres)
Price: €85,000
Gas heating from 2005
Garage
Windows from 1980
Double-layer exterior walls
3-core wiring without RCD
Clay roof tiles / no insulation
That should be enough for now.
We really like the room layout.
- Upstairs, only a non-load-bearing wall needs to be removed to create a large bathroom.
- Downstairs, there is a guest toilet that also needs to be renovated.
- Inside, everything must be completely stripped out, meaning carpets and wallpaper.
- The subfloor consists of wooden floorboards that we want to sand and restore, at least in the living room.
- In the upper rooms, we plan to just repaint the floorboards for now.
- The windows need to be replaced.
- New kitchen (relocating connections)
- Blown-in insulation or ETICS (external thermal insulation composite system)
The electrical distribution panel dates from around 1980 and has 3-core wiring but no RCD. The question is whether to completely renew the electrical system while the walls are already open.
The pipes are galvanized and according to the realtor do not need to be replaced.
We have an inspection by a building surveyor scheduled for tomorrow, who will thoroughly check the entire house.
So far we have optimistically estimated renovation costs at around €70,000.
Basically, we have a shell and plan to rebuild everything internally.
What are your experiences with such renovations? What additional issues could arise that we might not have considered? Where can problems occur?
We have already agreed with the realtor that he will "hold" the house for us. We are happy to pay the costs for the surveyor because if everything is okay we get a good feeling. If the surveyor advises us against it, he will have saved us from a bad purchase. He should also give us an approximate idea of what costs to expect.
Do you have general experience with houses from the 1950s regarding structural condition or durability?
Best regards
we are planning to purchase a single-family house.
Here are some details:
Year built: 1957
Living area: 130 m² (1400 sq ft) / basement
Plot size: 830 m² (0.2 acres)
Price: €85,000
Gas heating from 2005
Garage
Windows from 1980
Double-layer exterior walls
3-core wiring without RCD
Clay roof tiles / no insulation
That should be enough for now.
We really like the room layout.
- Upstairs, only a non-load-bearing wall needs to be removed to create a large bathroom.
- Downstairs, there is a guest toilet that also needs to be renovated.
- Inside, everything must be completely stripped out, meaning carpets and wallpaper.
- The subfloor consists of wooden floorboards that we want to sand and restore, at least in the living room.
- In the upper rooms, we plan to just repaint the floorboards for now.
- The windows need to be replaced.
- New kitchen (relocating connections)
- Blown-in insulation or ETICS (external thermal insulation composite system)
The electrical distribution panel dates from around 1980 and has 3-core wiring but no RCD. The question is whether to completely renew the electrical system while the walls are already open.
The pipes are galvanized and according to the realtor do not need to be replaced.
We have an inspection by a building surveyor scheduled for tomorrow, who will thoroughly check the entire house.
So far we have optimistically estimated renovation costs at around €70,000.
Basically, we have a shell and plan to rebuild everything internally.
What are your experiences with such renovations? What additional issues could arise that we might not have considered? Where can problems occur?
We have already agreed with the realtor that he will "hold" the house for us. We are happy to pay the costs for the surveyor because if everything is okay we get a good feeling. If the surveyor advises us against it, he will have saved us from a bad purchase. He should also give us an approximate idea of what costs to expect.
Do you have general experience with houses from the 1950s regarding structural condition or durability?
Best regards
Consider what you want to achieve in the end. Should the house (apart from the insulation) be brought up to the standard of a new build, or are you aiming to acquire your own property "relatively affordably" and are willing to make compromises for that?
I believe that even with compromises, €70,000 is very tight. A new roof with insulation will probably cost between €25,000 and €30,000. If you spend that much on insulation, the roof should be included. I consider windows and insulation together for a total of €20,000 unrealistic. For me, that amount would already cover just the windows (excluding the front door). You should also think carefully about the insulation. I have looked at many old houses that were newly insulated, and almost all of them had terrible indoor air quality. We experienced that in our last rental as well. Well insulated, with low utility bills, but the air was stuffy. After a week-long vacation, the apartment couldn’t be entered without airing it out first. Mold was a constant problem. I would not undertake such insulation without a ventilation system.
Next point, bathrooms:
This depends on what you can and want to do yourself. We have budgeted €12,000 for our bathroom (single sink, mirrored cabinet, shower, bathtub, toilet). We will install everything ourselves or the tile fitter will handle the shower. Otherwise, we will do everything except the tiles: gutting, drywall, sanitary installation, electrical work. All connections remain roughly where they currently are (maximum 1m offset), and the bathroom is 7m² (75 ft²). If you say you want to enlarge the bathroom and will need to reroute drains and water supply, that can quickly become expensive. Acquaintances of mine recently had this done completely (and with rather expensive fixtures) and spent almost €40,000. Definitely get a quote for this. Even a guest bathroom can cost €7,000–10,000 if done professionally.
You want to redo the electrical work, which I would definitely recommend. Today, there are very different requirements because many more power outlets are needed. Also, I would install network cabling in as many rooms as possible. You can then consider home automation, as it cannot easily be retrofitted.
Flooring and wallpaper add up quickly if you want to renovate the entire house. For 130m² (1,400 ft²), at €25/m² (per square meter), that’s already about €3,500 for floors; for wallpaper and ceilings, even with inexpensive options, you should budget another €3,500–4,500.
You should also carefully estimate the time required. Do you have friends or family who can actively support you (and I’m not talking about 1–2 rooms)? Doing this as a couple is a huge amount of work. Restoring a plank floor in the living room isn’t something you can do quickly in 2–3 days. Like everyone here probably, I do many things “quickly” on the side. After moving, we took a full week off to really get things done. In the end, with three people, we papered two rooms, laid some cables, and painted two rooms. There are so many tasks that come up and cause delays. After work in the evenings, you hardly accomplish anything. You hang two lamps, and by the time you get to the coat rack, it’s already so dark you can’t see where to drill. Quickly painting some shelves in the basement takes up half a Saturday.
In 3 months, you can achieve a lot if you can work full time. If you only have evenings and weekends, you have a very ambitious schedule ahead of you.
I believe that even with compromises, €70,000 is very tight. A new roof with insulation will probably cost between €25,000 and €30,000. If you spend that much on insulation, the roof should be included. I consider windows and insulation together for a total of €20,000 unrealistic. For me, that amount would already cover just the windows (excluding the front door). You should also think carefully about the insulation. I have looked at many old houses that were newly insulated, and almost all of them had terrible indoor air quality. We experienced that in our last rental as well. Well insulated, with low utility bills, but the air was stuffy. After a week-long vacation, the apartment couldn’t be entered without airing it out first. Mold was a constant problem. I would not undertake such insulation without a ventilation system.
Next point, bathrooms:
This depends on what you can and want to do yourself. We have budgeted €12,000 for our bathroom (single sink, mirrored cabinet, shower, bathtub, toilet). We will install everything ourselves or the tile fitter will handle the shower. Otherwise, we will do everything except the tiles: gutting, drywall, sanitary installation, electrical work. All connections remain roughly where they currently are (maximum 1m offset), and the bathroom is 7m² (75 ft²). If you say you want to enlarge the bathroom and will need to reroute drains and water supply, that can quickly become expensive. Acquaintances of mine recently had this done completely (and with rather expensive fixtures) and spent almost €40,000. Definitely get a quote for this. Even a guest bathroom can cost €7,000–10,000 if done professionally.
You want to redo the electrical work, which I would definitely recommend. Today, there are very different requirements because many more power outlets are needed. Also, I would install network cabling in as many rooms as possible. You can then consider home automation, as it cannot easily be retrofitted.
Flooring and wallpaper add up quickly if you want to renovate the entire house. For 130m² (1,400 ft²), at €25/m² (per square meter), that’s already about €3,500 for floors; for wallpaper and ceilings, even with inexpensive options, you should budget another €3,500–4,500.
You should also carefully estimate the time required. Do you have friends or family who can actively support you (and I’m not talking about 1–2 rooms)? Doing this as a couple is a huge amount of work. Restoring a plank floor in the living room isn’t something you can do quickly in 2–3 days. Like everyone here probably, I do many things “quickly” on the side. After moving, we took a full week off to really get things done. In the end, with three people, we papered two rooms, laid some cables, and painted two rooms. There are so many tasks that come up and cause delays. After work in the evenings, you hardly accomplish anything. You hang two lamps, and by the time you get to the coat rack, it’s already so dark you can’t see where to drill. Quickly painting some shelves in the basement takes up half a Saturday.
In 3 months, you can achieve a lot if you can work full time. If you only have evenings and weekends, you have a very ambitious schedule ahead of you.
Peanuts74 schrieb:
Why does the external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) look terrible?Because I wouldn’t want to live on the right side. You can tell immediately from the roof, windows, and the base that it doesn’t belong there, it looks cobbled together and completely destroys the character of the house. The window arches are gone, the floor slab edges are smoothed out, but the base, stairs, and roof remain old and don’t match the new additions.
Best regards
Dirk Grafe
jan2110 schrieb:
My understanding regarding the windows is that with triple glazing, the window itself is no longer the coldest spot, but rather the facade becomes colder, which then allows moisture to settle there.Well, it depends on the rest of the house. We had a mix of windows here—double-glazed as well as single-glazed, especially the old front door. We never had any condensation inside! At least not inside the house. In the old rented prefab building, however, we did have moisture on the inside of the windows; the indoor humidity ranged from 40-55% (the living room was lower, sometimes even below 40, to the point where my eyes felt dry and irritated, yet there was still daily condensation on the window glass).
In the previous rented prefab building (sorry, I don’t have a better word for these poorly built structures), the insulation was applied to the facade first, but the windows stayed the same. As soon as the external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) was added, the outer walls started to develop mold! That really shouldn’t have happened!
In our house, on the solid ground floor, we have 3 cm (1.2 inches) of internal polystyrene insulation. We have not seen a single spot of mold anywhere, even though the lower floor has been occupied but unheated over the last five winters! (Winter temperature stays constant at 14°C (57°F) — we are working on that).
We’ve also had triple-glazed windows and ETICS for three years now, with absolutely no mold, both with and without insulation.
We do get moisture on the windows, yes—on the outside though! They all get fogged up externally in the mornings, even in summer—except for the two old windows we still have installed.
So, it’s not that simple.
K
Knallkörper23 Aug 2016 14:27Also, the roof overhang will be quite small.
N
nightdancer23 Aug 2016 14:34Dirk Grafe schrieb:
Because I don't want to live on the right side. eA typical example of poor renovation. This could have been done better. Ultimately, the ETICS (external thermal insulation composite system) is not to blame.
Equally dreadful are these new buildings in the Ponderosa style. They might fit in Spain or Mexico but not in our residential areas.
Knallkörper schrieb:
Besides, the roof overhang is so small. But that can be changed. If you're already working on the roof insulation and covering, it might not be a big deal. That's what was done in our case, and you can't really tell that there is an exterior wall insulation system on the old house.
Of course, it all comes down to costs—especially if you want to do the work gradually while already living inside.
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