Hello,
for our planned new build, I would like to automate as much as my budget allows. A central control system (touchscreen/app) for blinds, underfloor heating, and possibly indoor/outdoor lighting. Since I’m not familiar with this topic, I have two basic questions:
1). What approximate costs should I expect if about 170sqm (1,830 sqft) of living space including bathroom, toilet, hallway, 4 living rooms, and garage are to be automated? Of course, I understand you can’t give me an exact estimate.
2). How should I best approach my planning? Since I assume my budget won’t cover everything at once, I want to at least make all necessary preparations during construction. That way, I can add features later without having to open up walls. Sort of like preparing the roof for solar panels in advance…
Looking forward to your answers
for our planned new build, I would like to automate as much as my budget allows. A central control system (touchscreen/app) for blinds, underfloor heating, and possibly indoor/outdoor lighting. Since I’m not familiar with this topic, I have two basic questions:
1). What approximate costs should I expect if about 170sqm (1,830 sqft) of living space including bathroom, toilet, hallway, 4 living rooms, and garage are to be automated? Of course, I understand you can’t give me an exact estimate.
2). How should I best approach my planning? Since I assume my budget won’t cover everything at once, I want to at least make all necessary preparations during construction. That way, I can add features later without having to open up walls. Sort of like preparing the roof for solar panels in advance…
Looking forward to your answers
And what is the big disadvantage of radio-based systems?
For example, looking at Eltako, it seems very straightforward. You can buy exactly what you need step by step, upgrading piece by piece as you have the budget, without relying on complex star wiring configurations.
When I think about how many kilometers (miles) of electrical cables you’d need if every outlet, light, and shutter had to be individually wired back to the main distribution panel, it’s quite overwhelming. o.O
So where’s the catch with radio systems? This is a genuine question—I’d really like to know.
To me, as a layperson, it sounds very simple: a receiver in the flush-mounted box, a wireless switch (some don’t even need batteries anymore) stuck to the wall, and that’s it. Sounds pretty great, doesn’t it?
For example, looking at Eltako, it seems very straightforward. You can buy exactly what you need step by step, upgrading piece by piece as you have the budget, without relying on complex star wiring configurations.
When I think about how many kilometers (miles) of electrical cables you’d need if every outlet, light, and shutter had to be individually wired back to the main distribution panel, it’s quite overwhelming. o.O
So where’s the catch with radio systems? This is a genuine question—I’d really like to know.
To me, as a layperson, it sounds very simple: a receiver in the flush-mounted box, a wireless switch (some don’t even need batteries anymore) stuck to the wall, and that’s it. Sounds pretty great, doesn’t it?
Disadvantages include:
- Central units or hubs are often required, which unnecessarily increase the cost of the system
- Range can be affected by other electromagnetic fields (refrigerators, TVs, DECT phones, Wi-Fi, microwaves)
- Signals sometimes get "lost," meaning they simply do not arrive, and after multiple attempts the process is aborted
- Battery-free switches tend to be quite loud and unattractive due to the piezo element
- Many wireless systems still require batteries or power, so there is no clear advantage in these cases
- Users are usually tied to one manufacturer (although there are some cross-manufacturer wireless systems, this is usually the case)
and so on...
In contrast, a few kilometers of cabling can be quickly installed in a new build... and a star wiring topology is much simpler than a conventional one, since distribution boxes and connection points are eliminated, making complex circuits unnecessary. The cables simply run from point A to point B, and then switching/dimming/driving happens from A to B.
- Central units or hubs are often required, which unnecessarily increase the cost of the system
- Range can be affected by other electromagnetic fields (refrigerators, TVs, DECT phones, Wi-Fi, microwaves)
- Signals sometimes get "lost," meaning they simply do not arrive, and after multiple attempts the process is aborted
- Battery-free switches tend to be quite loud and unattractive due to the piezo element
- Many wireless systems still require batteries or power, so there is no clear advantage in these cases
- Users are usually tied to one manufacturer (although there are some cross-manufacturer wireless systems, this is usually the case)
and so on...
In contrast, a few kilometers of cabling can be quickly installed in a new build... and a star wiring topology is much simpler than a conventional one, since distribution boxes and connection points are eliminated, making complex circuits unnecessary. The cables simply run from point A to point B, and then switching/dimming/driving happens from A to B.
It’s not just about installation; the price of the cable alone is quite significant. One meter of 3x1.5 cable costs around €0.32 even when bought in bulk, and that adds up quickly with many meters. If I think about it... four outlets in one room (which I still consider a small number) already means four separate cables going into the room. Plus one cable for lighting and one for the roller shutter, that makes six. Six times 50 meters equals 300 meters, which already amounts to almost €100 just for the cable purchase price for a single room. That’s before any switches are connected or any bus cables are installed (another €0.3 per meter).
On top of that, you end up with a huge main distribution panel, a cable mess, and lots of cable ties cluttering ceilings and walls. That seems a bit too much to me...
Wireless:
For KNX, don’t I also need a central unit and/or a node? Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to use all the advantages, right? Apart from the programming software, you want to be able to make adjustments occasionally; otherwise, you might as well stick to conventional wiring.
I can accept range limitations, but that can be fixed with a repeater for about $50. That probably also compensates for lost connection attempts, which are likely caused by too much distance or interference. But even the cheap wireless system from Kopp that I sometimes use in my current house works perfectly through three floors.
Whether the switch is “loud” doesn’t matter to me at all personally. My conventional switches are loud as well. You could replace them with regular switches or push-buttons connected to corresponding transmitters, but why bother? They also require power and cost another $40 each.
The issue of manufacturer lock-in no longer applies to the Eltako -> EnOcean system mentioned because it finally uses a standardized protocol with multiple manufacturers supported.
I just thought that KNX flush-mounted actuators (KNX-UP) might be an alternative—basically replacing only the wireless segment of the initial installation with bus cable, but still controlling the consumers locally. Then only one power supply would be needed in the room, with the switches installed there, significantly reducing cabling with expensive power cables. But KNX flush-mounted actuators are even more expensive than the wireless actuators from EnOcean, if I read correctly (€100 each for KNX vs. about €60 each for EnOcean/Eltako).
I think KNX is just too expensive for me. If you want to expand later, you have to chase and install new cables again. That’s just my amateur, well-informed opinion after a brief research.
On top of that, you end up with a huge main distribution panel, a cable mess, and lots of cable ties cluttering ceilings and walls. That seems a bit too much to me...
Wireless:
For KNX, don’t I also need a central unit and/or a node? Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to use all the advantages, right? Apart from the programming software, you want to be able to make adjustments occasionally; otherwise, you might as well stick to conventional wiring.
I can accept range limitations, but that can be fixed with a repeater for about $50. That probably also compensates for lost connection attempts, which are likely caused by too much distance or interference. But even the cheap wireless system from Kopp that I sometimes use in my current house works perfectly through three floors.
Whether the switch is “loud” doesn’t matter to me at all personally. My conventional switches are loud as well. You could replace them with regular switches or push-buttons connected to corresponding transmitters, but why bother? They also require power and cost another $40 each.
The issue of manufacturer lock-in no longer applies to the Eltako -> EnOcean system mentioned because it finally uses a standardized protocol with multiple manufacturers supported.
I just thought that KNX flush-mounted actuators (KNX-UP) might be an alternative—basically replacing only the wireless segment of the initial installation with bus cable, but still controlling the consumers locally. Then only one power supply would be needed in the room, with the switches installed there, significantly reducing cabling with expensive power cables. But KNX flush-mounted actuators are even more expensive than the wireless actuators from EnOcean, if I read correctly (€100 each for KNX vs. about €60 each for EnOcean/Eltako).
I think KNX is just too expensive for me. If you want to expand later, you have to chase and install new cables again. That’s just my amateur, well-informed opinion after a brief research.
Well, you can also use 5x1.5 for the sockets, and that reduces the cost to about €0.65 per meter (around $0.70 per yard) for the average buyer when grouped in sets of three. I don’t know what kind of enormous house you’re planning, but in my house, the longest cables are no more than 20 meters (65 feet) long. So, a typical room with six sockets and a stove outlet has power and bus cables costing around €40 ($43).
With a KNX central unit, you are on the wrong track... that is actually THE ADVANTAGE of the system. Once commissioned, everything operates independently. With wireless, you need nodes/central units/repeaters to collect the telegrams and distribute them to the correct participants.
The programming software for KNX is free for up to 20 devices, so it is usable for the average user. Wireless also requires programming software, but that usually comes included, whereas with KNX you have to manage that yourself.
Using a repeater introduces another potential point of failure in your home—what do you do if it fails?
Lost telegrams increase with the number of participants, and with wireless you automatically have more participants than with a wired system, because for example, you need a motor and a window contact for each window. With 10 windows, that’s 20 participants, all transmitting wirelessly from time to time. Add lighting and other devices, and you have a lot of devices communicating randomly, leading to lost telegrams. With a wired system, for example, you can handle 8 windows on a single device, which counts as only one participant.
These systems are also designed so that if a certain number of communication attempts fail (usually three), communication simply stops because the receiver is unreachable.
In summary: As the complexity of an installation increases, the error rate in wireless systems also rises... you still see this with mobile phones at concerts or crowded places—at some point, the reception becomes sporadic at best. The same applies to a house full of wireless participants. Whether switches feel good to use is subjective, but you probably have never experienced an EnOcean switch or an Eltako... they make a distinctly audible click, which I personally find distracting.
Flush-mounted actuators in KNX are more expensive for two reasons:
1. They are generally used only for retrofitting, so demand is simply lower.
2. The technology that normally handles 4/8/16 channels has to fit into a flush-mount box to control just 1-2 channels for switching or dimming.
Of course, this makes the price per channel significantly higher.
Later, when expanding, you rarely need to lay new cables. You simply use the existing ones, but you do need to plan in advance instead of building haphazardly. A well-planned system usually doesn’t require additional cables even decades later. Generally, it is enough to replace the bus components to get new functions.
To each their own; EnOcean feels too limited for me, which is why I ended up with KNX.
KNX only seems expensive at first glance. A few years ago, there were comparisons showing that beyond a certain size, KNX becomes cheaper than conventional systems. Here is some not completely current information on this subject... unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything comparable for wireless systems.
With a KNX central unit, you are on the wrong track... that is actually THE ADVANTAGE of the system. Once commissioned, everything operates independently. With wireless, you need nodes/central units/repeaters to collect the telegrams and distribute them to the correct participants.
The programming software for KNX is free for up to 20 devices, so it is usable for the average user. Wireless also requires programming software, but that usually comes included, whereas with KNX you have to manage that yourself.
Using a repeater introduces another potential point of failure in your home—what do you do if it fails?
Lost telegrams increase with the number of participants, and with wireless you automatically have more participants than with a wired system, because for example, you need a motor and a window contact for each window. With 10 windows, that’s 20 participants, all transmitting wirelessly from time to time. Add lighting and other devices, and you have a lot of devices communicating randomly, leading to lost telegrams. With a wired system, for example, you can handle 8 windows on a single device, which counts as only one participant.
These systems are also designed so that if a certain number of communication attempts fail (usually three), communication simply stops because the receiver is unreachable.
In summary: As the complexity of an installation increases, the error rate in wireless systems also rises... you still see this with mobile phones at concerts or crowded places—at some point, the reception becomes sporadic at best. The same applies to a house full of wireless participants. Whether switches feel good to use is subjective, but you probably have never experienced an EnOcean switch or an Eltako... they make a distinctly audible click, which I personally find distracting.
Flush-mounted actuators in KNX are more expensive for two reasons:
1. They are generally used only for retrofitting, so demand is simply lower.
2. The technology that normally handles 4/8/16 channels has to fit into a flush-mount box to control just 1-2 channels for switching or dimming.
Of course, this makes the price per channel significantly higher.
Later, when expanding, you rarely need to lay new cables. You simply use the existing ones, but you do need to plan in advance instead of building haphazardly. A well-planned system usually doesn’t require additional cables even decades later. Generally, it is enough to replace the bus components to get new functions.
To each their own; EnOcean feels too limited for me, which is why I ended up with KNX.
KNX only seems expensive at first glance. A few years ago, there were comparisons showing that beyond a certain size, KNX becomes cheaper than conventional systems. Here is some not completely current information on this subject... unfortunately, I couldn’t find anything comparable for wireless systems.
Please don’t misunderstand me—I’m not trying to criticize the system; quite the opposite. I want to form a solid opinion to make an informed decision. So, thank you very much in advance for the detailed information.
Exceeding 20 participants is probably easy, but at least that’s a start and an important piece of information for me.
The note about KNX multi-actors was very interesting. Although they are not cheap either, an 8-channel actuator for around 400 (currency not translated) is somewhat more reasonable than buying individual ones.
Did you do all of this yourself? Or what did you have done by others? And what did you pay for what scope? Your avatar looks quite intimidating in terms of effort involved…
What speaks against a KNX solution with small sub-distribution boxes (subpanels) in each room housing the actuators, which would greatly reduce the amount and complexity of wiring inside the walls? Then it could be expanded gradually as time/motivation/budget allow, which would make it much more attractive to me.
And how do relevant companies view self-installation in this field? Do you get inspections or approvals for systems that are self-wired but planned by the provider? I have already wired several sub-distribution boxes myself following instructions and passed inspections. Is that possibly also feasible here?
Thank you very much for your detailed answers; that really helps me a lot!
Exceeding 20 participants is probably easy, but at least that’s a start and an important piece of information for me.
The note about KNX multi-actors was very interesting. Although they are not cheap either, an 8-channel actuator for around 400 (currency not translated) is somewhat more reasonable than buying individual ones.
Did you do all of this yourself? Or what did you have done by others? And what did you pay for what scope? Your avatar looks quite intimidating in terms of effort involved…
What speaks against a KNX solution with small sub-distribution boxes (subpanels) in each room housing the actuators, which would greatly reduce the amount and complexity of wiring inside the walls? Then it could be expanded gradually as time/motivation/budget allow, which would make it much more attractive to me.
And how do relevant companies view self-installation in this field? Do you get inspections or approvals for systems that are self-wired but planned by the provider? I have already wired several sub-distribution boxes myself following instructions and passed inspections. Is that possibly also feasible here?
Thank you very much for your detailed answers; that really helps me a lot!