Hello,
for our planned new build, I would like to automate as much as my budget allows. A central control system (touchscreen/app) for blinds, underfloor heating, and possibly indoor/outdoor lighting. Since I’m not familiar with this topic, I have two basic questions:
1). What approximate costs should I expect if about 170sqm (1,830 sqft) of living space including bathroom, toilet, hallway, 4 living rooms, and garage are to be automated? Of course, I understand you can’t give me an exact estimate.
2). How should I best approach my planning? Since I assume my budget won’t cover everything at once, I want to at least make all necessary preparations during construction. That way, I can add features later without having to open up walls. Sort of like preparing the roof for solar panels in advance…
Looking forward to your answers
for our planned new build, I would like to automate as much as my budget allows. A central control system (touchscreen/app) for blinds, underfloor heating, and possibly indoor/outdoor lighting. Since I’m not familiar with this topic, I have two basic questions:
1). What approximate costs should I expect if about 170sqm (1,830 sqft) of living space including bathroom, toilet, hallway, 4 living rooms, and garage are to be automated? Of course, I understand you can’t give me an exact estimate.
2). How should I best approach my planning? Since I assume my budget won’t cover everything at once, I want to at least make all necessary preparations during construction. That way, I can add features later without having to open up walls. Sort of like preparing the roof for solar panels in advance…
Looking forward to your answers
Thanks to you as well, the tip about MDT was very helpful and insightful!
Also, the note about the software, although I still need to familiarize myself with what these "projects" actually mean or can do. If this just involves more effort without added functionality, that would be perfect.
Also, the note about the software, although I still need to familiarize myself with what these "projects" actually mean or can do. If this just involves more effort without added functionality, that would be perfect.
EinMarc schrieb:
Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not trying to criticize the system—in fact, quite the opposite. I want to form a solid opinion to support my decision-making.And I want to help you form an opinion by clearing up the common perception that “KNX is an overpriced system.”
As O’Neill said, you don’t have to go for the “premium segment”… there are more affordable manufacturers, especially for simple actuators, and the relays inside generally all come from the same source anyway.
Also, regarding the limit of 20 devices… you can simply create multiple projects (i.e., multiple files in the software), for example one for the outdoor area, one for the ground floor, and one for the upper floor… that way, you can have 60 devices in your installation and manage everything with the 20-device version, just one project at a time.
I had the cables and boxes installed by the electrician, but here I’m simply of the opinion that my time is better spent elsewhere (unlike many other homeowners), and I carried out the rest of the KNX installation myself, starting from:
So that includes planning, purchasing, wiring, and programming of the KNX components.
Right now there are about 90 devices.
EinMarc schrieb:
What’s wrong with a KNX solution with small subpanels per room housing the actuators, which would greatly reduce the amount and complexity of wiring inside the walls? Then you could gradually expand the system as time/motivation/funding allows, which would make it a lot more appealing to me.Basically, nothing at all! Everyone can do it their own way… that’s one of the advantages of KNX as well—you can set it up however you like as long as you comply with the applicable standards.
However, I would avoid actuators with noisy relays… they tend to click quite loudly when switching, and personally, that would bother me.
EinMarc schrieb:
And how do relevant companies view DIY work in this area? Do you get inspections and approvals for systems that are self-wired but planned by the provider?That depends on the executing company. My partner allowed me to be involved at every stage and ultimately inspected and approved the system, effectively granting the official acceptance. However, many companies only offer complete services themselves because, for warranty reasons, they fear someone else might cause issues by intervening.
A real wealth of knowledge here
One critical question: Why can’t (or can) electrical wiring be used as communication lines themselves, similar to powerline communication systems in IT networks? That would significantly reduce retrofitting and wiring effort.
Manufacturers: Thanks to KNX, all devices should be compatible with each other, right? Especially the switches are really expensive, and those are the ones you need most. An affordable manufacturer would be very much welcome.
At first glance, the comparison chart seems a bit overly optimistic. Of course, it would be even better if this turns out to be realistically accurate.
One critical question: Why can’t (or can) electrical wiring be used as communication lines themselves, similar to powerline communication systems in IT networks? That would significantly reduce retrofitting and wiring effort.
Manufacturers: Thanks to KNX, all devices should be compatible with each other, right? Especially the switches are really expensive, and those are the ones you need most. An affordable manufacturer would be very much welcome.
At first glance, the comparison chart seems a bit overly optimistic. Of course, it would be even better if this turns out to be realistically accurate.
There was a Powerline KNX line from B&J, but it was discontinued because it was limited to a single manufacturer and probably due to low demand.
It simply isn’t worth it. The bus cable only costs about 30 cents per meter, and in my entire installation it was under 100 euros, which is negligible. You just install it everywhere since it can be laid directly alongside power cables, and then you have BUS available at every possible and impossible location in the house. This setup is also fail-safe and requires no additional hardware.
Yes, everything that the red-gray terminal supports is compatible with each other.
I even took it to the extreme out of curiosity. My B&J weather station runs with Merten software and receives data from a JUNG multisensor (which, according to all three manufacturers, is not supposed to be possible) because compatibility only starts at the KNX terminal.
Prices for switches have become moderate as well, and you can also use conventional ones if you want. However, in that case, you need a flush-mount switch interface behind each one, which limits functionality somewhat but does save some money.
Or you can do it the other way around:
In a room with 3 roller shutters and a fireplace, there are usually 5 switches at the entrance: 1x shutter, 1x light, 3x roller shutters.
All in all, the installation costs here are about 15 euros per drilled box + 10 euros per switch insert + 20 euros for the shutter control = 135 euros.
With KNX (if we stick to MDT), you need two boxes + a KNX switch with 8 functions and a temperature sensor, so about 30 euros for drilling and 130 euros for the MDT switch = 160 euros.
Yes, that’s about 20% more, but functionality also increases significantly since the MDT switch can do much more than the simple one, and if you want to make changes later, you only have to replace the switch, not the cabling.
Without shutter control, the cost is naturally even lower.
So, my experience shows that the comparison chart is quite accurate... a group control for roller shutters done conventionally costs a fortune. With KNX, it takes just a few clicks.
It simply isn’t worth it. The bus cable only costs about 30 cents per meter, and in my entire installation it was under 100 euros, which is negligible. You just install it everywhere since it can be laid directly alongside power cables, and then you have BUS available at every possible and impossible location in the house. This setup is also fail-safe and requires no additional hardware.
Yes, everything that the red-gray terminal supports is compatible with each other.
I even took it to the extreme out of curiosity. My B&J weather station runs with Merten software and receives data from a JUNG multisensor (which, according to all three manufacturers, is not supposed to be possible) because compatibility only starts at the KNX terminal.
Prices for switches have become moderate as well, and you can also use conventional ones if you want. However, in that case, you need a flush-mount switch interface behind each one, which limits functionality somewhat but does save some money.
Or you can do it the other way around:
In a room with 3 roller shutters and a fireplace, there are usually 5 switches at the entrance: 1x shutter, 1x light, 3x roller shutters.
All in all, the installation costs here are about 15 euros per drilled box + 10 euros per switch insert + 20 euros for the shutter control = 135 euros.
With KNX (if we stick to MDT), you need two boxes + a KNX switch with 8 functions and a temperature sensor, so about 30 euros for drilling and 130 euros for the MDT switch = 160 euros.
Yes, that’s about 20% more, but functionality also increases significantly since the MDT switch can do much more than the simple one, and if you want to make changes later, you only have to replace the switch, not the cabling.
Without shutter control, the cost is naturally even lower.
So, my experience shows that the comparison chart is quite accurate... a group control for roller shutters done conventionally costs a fortune. With KNX, it takes just a few clicks.
Hello,
I am also a supporter of the KNX system.
I can only agree with Mycraft. I personally use KNX as well, and like Mycraft, I have bus cables and flush-mounted boxes with bus cables installed in all sorts of practical locations. In every room, there is a box by the door at 2.0m (6.6 ft), one at 1.5m (4.9 ft), and the standard one at 1.15m (3.8 ft). If I want to install a motion sensor, light sensor, or any other device later, I just open the box and that’s it. The extra effort is minimal.
Regarding costs, I also agree with Mycraft. The “expensive” aspect of KNX only starts when you add fancy extras. Simple KNX sensors (push buttons, thermostats, etc.) cost between 80 and 120€ and the functionality you get far exceeds what traditional systems offer. If you add features like central off, central blinds control, multiple switching for hallways or stairway lighting, then traditional systems usually become more expensive than KNX.
And if you have some extra money to spend, you can install a Synohr and control your house by voice: a status gadget costing about 900€. The experience is priceless! Lying in bed, you say “James, sleep scene.” Blinds close, lights gradually dim, soft music starts playing in the background, and the alarm is automatically set according to your calendar entry!
I am also a supporter of the KNX system.
I can only agree with Mycraft. I personally use KNX as well, and like Mycraft, I have bus cables and flush-mounted boxes with bus cables installed in all sorts of practical locations. In every room, there is a box by the door at 2.0m (6.6 ft), one at 1.5m (4.9 ft), and the standard one at 1.15m (3.8 ft). If I want to install a motion sensor, light sensor, or any other device later, I just open the box and that’s it. The extra effort is minimal.
Regarding costs, I also agree with Mycraft. The “expensive” aspect of KNX only starts when you add fancy extras. Simple KNX sensors (push buttons, thermostats, etc.) cost between 80 and 120€ and the functionality you get far exceeds what traditional systems offer. If you add features like central off, central blinds control, multiple switching for hallways or stairway lighting, then traditional systems usually become more expensive than KNX.
And if you have some extra money to spend, you can install a Synohr and control your house by voice: a status gadget costing about 900€. The experience is priceless! Lying in bed, you say “James, sleep scene.” Blinds close, lights gradually dim, soft music starts playing in the background, and the alarm is automatically set according to your calendar entry!
Mycraft schrieb:
It’s simply not worth it. The bus cable costs only about 30 cents per meter (around 9 cents per foot), and for my entire installation, it was less than 100 euros, which is negligible. You just include it everywhere since it can be installed right alongside power cables, and then you have a BUS connection in every possible and impossible place in the house. This is also fail-safe and requires no additional hardware. So what now, I thought it wasn’t worth preparing? Then I’ll just do a “normal” electrical installation, lay the KNX bus cable everywhere, and gradually replace the components over the next 10 years?