ᐅ Renovating a 1960s House: Questionable Expert Recommendations?
Created on: 1 May 2021 12:16
S
schwalbe
Hello everyone,
I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.
My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.
My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.
Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
Current condition:
Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.
Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).
In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.
I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.
At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.
Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.
schwalbe
I have been following this forum for a while and have now registered due to a current situation. I would appreciate your assessment.
My partner and I are both in our mid-30s, have a young son (15 months old), and are planning to buy a detached single-family house in Middle Franconia (800m² (8600 sq ft) plot without slope, house built in 1959, approximately 123m² (1324 sq ft) of living space) for 360,000 EUR including purchase-related costs. Yesterday, I visited the property with an expert and subsequently committed to the real estate agent. The house has been reserved for us, and we will be able to purchase it.
My partner (a civil servant teacher) is absolutely convinced about managing construction projects. I am an engineer specializing in energy-saving measures, but professionally I mostly work with large ventilation systems, combined heat and power plants, and boiler systems in the triple-digit kilowatt range, with almost no experience in insulation. However, I do have some technical knowledge and experience estimating costs.
Here are the key facts in brief, from bottom to top:
- Basement: boiler room + oil storage, workshop, storage/pantry, laundry room with external stairs leading to the garden.
- Ground floor: entrance hall, toilet, small bathroom with bathtub, living room with a wood stove and patio door (garden access), dining room, kitchen.
- Upper floor: bathroom (also with wooden floor and carpet on top), 3 bedrooms.
- Attic, accessible via folding stairs: two small, identical rooms. I estimate about 6m² (65 sq ft) each; this area was not included in the stated living space (123m²). Above these rooms is about 0.8m (2.6 ft) of space up to the ridge.
Current condition:
- A leak in the workshop: the electrical line entry point is leaking. During heavy rain, about 2 buckets of water enter.
- Some basement ceilings are covered with old-looking insulation, which appears to be a thin, homemade foam polystyrene layer.
- Heating: oil heating system, installed in 1999. Gas connection is also available in the house.
- Electrical wiring is two-wire.
- Floors are wooden planks everywhere. Most rooms have carpets laid on top.
- Exterior walls according to the floor plan are 30cm (12 inches) brick with plaster on top.
- The gable roof was re-covered around 1980 (clay tiles) and has mineral wood fiber insulation between rafters. On the room side there is a "straw mat plaster" and wood paneling. No irregularities are visible from outside; the tiles are just a bit mossy. From inside, you can look directly under the ridge and see the beams with no signs of moisture or similar issues.
Before the expert assessment, we thought this would be a major renovation and planned to start from scratch.
In other words: remove all wiring (water, electricity, heating) and install new ones, insulate the facade, insulate the roof, install new triple-glazed windows. Also, all bathrooms/toilets and the kitchen would be fully renewed. We estimated the total cost for these measures to be a maximum of 240,000 EUR. Friends of ours who completely renovated a similar property three years ago rounded our estimate up to 300,000 EUR and carried out a full renovation with government subsidies and grants.
Now the findings and the expert’s opinion from yesterday:
In advance: I arranged this expert through an online platform and the process had to be quite quick. I spoke with him on the phone beforehand to outline the planned renovation scope and was curious who would show up. He is around 70 years old and, according to his business card, a certified building damage expert. He also does mold assessments and quality control during construction. He seems to be a "never change a running system" type. I trust his assessment of the building’s condition, but on some topics he seemed less knowledgeable (for example, he said that the efficiency of a condensing boiler and return temperature/temperature level have nothing to do with each other. Also, he claimed there is no legal insulation requirement).
- He measured wall moisture in almost every room. Considering the house has been unoccupied and unventilated for two years, the values are good. Of course, there was more moisture in the workshop. He would fix the leak as follows: dig around the corner of the house where the damage is, about 2m (6.5 ft) in radius down to the basement floor level. Disconnect and pull back the electrical cable, drill a new hole, and seal it properly. He estimates the cost at around 5,000 EUR.
- Surprisingly, he would also install small radiators in the basement rooms to maintain basic heating and thus prevent mold. He said the heat isn’t lost but rises, though to me adding radiators in the basement seemed odd.
- Regarding the heating system, he recommends replacing the oil boiler with a gas condensing boiler, which would bring significant savings. I find that questionable, especially if the system runs at 70/50°C and nobody wonders why it doesn’t condense.
- For the exterior walls (minor plaster cracks mainly on the south side), he would simply apply a second layer of plaster to improve appearance, but would not add insulation. If I understand the local energy regulations correctly, this is permissible without mandatory insulation. Still, I have reservations about just plastering over old plaster and hoping it will hold. Is this common practice?
- As for the roof, he would also leave it as is. However, in my opinion, the energy regulations clearly require insulation of either the top floor ceiling or the roof if the minimum standards of DIN 4108-2 (2013) are not met. The old insulation in the roof likely will not comply.
- When replacing windows, he would not recommend the most airtight options but double glazing with a U-value between 1.3 and 1.5.
- He suggested completely renewing the electrical system and estimated costs of at least 20,000 EUR for this. Heating and water pipes would remain. We strongly doubt this, as we don’t feel comfortable keeping 60-year-old pipes, even if they could last another 20 years. Opening walls and floors in a fully occupied home later would be a nightmare.
In summary, he recommends significantly less renovation than we had planned. He said this could save about 100,000 EUR. Our goal and desire is to prepare a home that does not require ongoing renovation every five years because improvements need to be made bit by bit. However, we do not want a fully insulated, deep-renovated house at any cost either. I understand that he prefers to retain a functioning, mold-free building and only insulate further if absolutely necessary. On the other hand, energy costs over the next 50 years cannot be ignored.
I am interested in your opinions on the points described. I can provide more detailed information if needed. I understand that it is difficult to assess everything from a distance, especially since insulation is a controversial topic. Since I have little experience in this area, I find it hard to properly evaluate his statements.
At the moment, I plan to consult a second expert (Are there secret tips on where to find reliable ones?) and get a second opinion on site.
Maybe someone has read this whole post, has experience with such projects, and/or completely different ideas or objections that I haven’t considered yet.
I look forward to hearing from you and thank you in advance for any feedback.
schwalbe
H
hanghaus20002 May 2021 08:07Pellet heating? With this, you are dependent on one supplier, and you need more space in the house for storage, as well as somewhat more complex maintenance and repairs.
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nordanney2 May 2021 08:42Schimi1791 schrieb:
A heat pump is not worth it because of significantly higher maintenance costs compared to, for example, a gas heating system.What maintenance costs? It’s clear that a gas heating system needs annual servicing, including chimney sweeping. But a heat pump requires about as much maintenance as a refrigerator.nordanney schrieb:
The inspector is either good (because they only do the bare minimum) or they haven’t evolved beyond the year 1990. A very fitting description 😎. Until now, I tended to think more of the latter, but your feedback has made me reconsider my opinion somewhat.
apokolok schrieb:
A heat pump only makes sense if you fully insulate and also switch to underfloor heating.
I wouldn’t do that; it’s not good for old houses.
However, you’re right about insulating the top floor ceiling/roof as well as the water pipes.
You can leave the heating pipes as they are. That’s a closed circuit, so there is hardly any buildup or corrosion.
I don’t believe CO2 will get expensive enough soon for the extra costs to pay off within your lifetime. As I said, I’m torn about the heat pump. With an insulated roof and better windows, the demand would already be lower. Then add some self-generated electricity, possibly larger heating surfaces, and slightly reduced system temperatures. Or would I immediately get mold problems in the unchanged facade? I find using self-generated solar power quite appealing, and a heat pump would be the first choice for that.
I’m not as relaxed about rising CO2 costs as you are. I don’t see it as dramatically as nordanney, but I expect a steady increase and consider it at least a partially deciding factor when choosing the system.
SumsumBiene schrieb:
What about a wood pellet heating system? Yes, pellets are also worth considering. With that, I could definitely achieve the same system temperatures. I’d need to think about how much storage space would be required. I assume that normally dust-controlled sack silos are placed in the basement (for example, an old oil storage), and pellets are not stored “open” on a sloped floor in a brick-built storage area? Is there some kind of standard for single-family houses, or does it vary depending on the local situation? Are there any special fire protection requirements?
hanghaus2000 schrieb:
Pellet heating? You become dependent on a supplier, need more space in the house for storage, and it requires somewhat more complex service and repairs. Well, I’m also dependent on a supplier when using oil. Having to pick up the phone now and then to refill the storage with either oil or pellets wouldn’t be inconvenient or annoying to me. Is maintenance on pellet boilers really that much more complex? What exactly needs to be done, and what costs can be expected?
Thanks for your answers, they’re really helpful for forming my opinion!
schwalbe schrieb:
I actually find self-consumption of solar power quite appealing, and a heat pump would be the first choice for that.That works very well in summer. But in winter, when you want the house to be warm, there is little to no output from the solar panels on the roof—in other words, just when you need your self-generated electricity, you have none and have to buy from the grid.H
hampshire2 May 2021 11:05The appraiser seems pragmatic to me. I like that. Insulating old buildings too tightly can cause significant problems for the building fabric; there are plenty of examples. It’s no coincidence that the mold remediation boom closely followed the insulation boom.
Only replace water pipes if they are made of lead. The heating system can probably remain. I would also recommend updating the electrical system.
Regarding heating, I find pellet and split-log gasification boilers interesting. I prefer the idea of maintaining system temperatures and not insulating too heavily. There are also subsidies available for this approach.
Photovoltaic systems and heat pumps are often mentioned. The sun is available in summer, but heat is needed in winter. As @KlaRa writes: photovoltaics usually provide energy at the wrong time. Nevertheless, photovoltaics are fundamentally sensible.
Only replace water pipes if they are made of lead. The heating system can probably remain. I would also recommend updating the electrical system.
Regarding heating, I find pellet and split-log gasification boilers interesting. I prefer the idea of maintaining system temperatures and not insulating too heavily. There are also subsidies available for this approach.
Photovoltaic systems and heat pumps are often mentioned. The sun is available in summer, but heat is needed in winter. As @KlaRa writes: photovoltaics usually provide energy at the wrong time. Nevertheless, photovoltaics are fundamentally sensible.
hampshire schrieb:
The inspector seems pragmatic to me. I like that. Insulating old buildings extremely tightly can cause significant problems for the building fabric; there are plenty of examples of this. It’s no coincidence that the insulation boom was quickly followed by a boom in mold remediation.
Only replace water pipes if they are made of lead. The heating system can probably stay. I would also replace the electrical wiring.
Regarding heating, I find pellet and split-log gasification boilers interesting. I like the idea of maintaining system temperatures without fully over-insulating. There are also subsidies available for that.I like that you mostly support the inspector’s opinion uniformly. I had feared a heated debate would break out here.The water pipes are not lead; those were more common in the 1930s and 1940s. He opened several taps, and after the long stagnation there was of course some brownish water, but nothing worrisome. Still, I would consider replacing the water pipes since they are about 60 years old, and the issues of wear and corrosion are likely very different from those in dead heating water.
Regarding wood gasifiers, I think—without having researched it in detail—immediately of increased maintenance and “messiness.” I have heard from others using wood-gasifier combined heat and power (CHP) systems that depending on gas quality (which varies greatly with fuel), there are often problems with clogged heat exchangers or other deposits.
hampshire schrieb:
Photovoltaics and heat pumps are mentioned frequently. The sun is available in summer, heat is needed in winter. As @KlaRa writes: photovoltaics usually produce energy at the wrong time. Still, photovoltaics are fundamentally useful.In winter, for comfort and coziness, we plan to supplement heating with the wood stove in the living room anyway, so we wouldn’t rely solely on the heat pump then. Although the roof is far from ideal for photovoltaics (facing WSW at an estimated 55° pitch), snow will quickly slide off in winter and PVGIS still indicates a yield of about 800 kWh/kWp. With appropriate buffer storage and/or electricity storage sizing, I think a decent self-consumption rate with the heat pump is feasible. Of course, not if it snows and rains for days...Attached are some photos of the roof construction and condition. The inspector recommended insulation above the rafters. From my research, estimated costs are up to €250 per m² (about $270 per yd²), which would mean around €40,000 for roughly 160 m² (about 1,700 ft²) of roof area. I’m not sure how current these figures are (considering the recent cost surge) or whether they include VAT. The tiles are said to be 40 years old. Can they be reused? Are they carefully removed and reused, or is it more economical (and faster) to discard them directly in the scrap container and reroof with new tiles?
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