ᐅ Which Sensors for What? Inspiration

RomeoZwo schrieb:

If the awning had its own phase (L) in the electrical panel, it could be connected even more quickly to available outputs of the 20-channel switching actuator. But yes, a bus cable there would also help. By the way, the WMS UP transmitter has been ordered.

Normally, you need two phases (in/out or motor rotation direction), and the suitable actuator would be a shutter actuator.
For awnings with a valance, even more are required.

Since phases are missing here—not even a dedicated one running to the distribution board or central actuator—the retrofit option would be to install a decentralized flush-mounted actuator near the awning. The awning would then be connected to this actuator, which in turn uses the one existing phase (with continuous power) to supply voltage to the awning.
Switching the actuator remains the problem. If you had, as mycraft suggested, provisionally installed KNX wiring in every corner of the house, it would be easy to implement a flush-mounted actuator there and connect it to the bus. If there is no KNX cable, a wireless solution with an appropriate gateway to KNX remains an option.

@guckuck2 In my case, @untergasse43 already had the simplest solution, which will be implemented (WMS transmitter connected to a free KNX actuator in the distribution board).

In my opinion, the proper solution (task for the electrician) would have been to run two phases from the distribution board to the awning.
Since this is missing, there are/would be several workaround solutions:
- One phase in the control cabinet, since the awning supports DOWN / STOP / UP (not available)
- KNX bus cable at the motor for the UP actuator (not available)
- WMS transmitter UP (in the control cabinet, will be implemented)

My statement to the original poster was that if all consumers are wired individually in the distribution board with the required number of phases, a bus cable at the consumers is actually not necessary.
Of course, if something is forgotten or done poorly, a bus cable near the consumers can be helpful. But running a separate bus cable to every single consumer is quite a bit of effort.

RomeoZwo schrieb:

Well, to avoid running a 3-core cable (L, N, PE) for every single device, you can use 5- or 7-core cables. These have 2 or 5 phases (L) and share the neutral (N) and protective earth (PE) conductors.
With a 7-core cable, for example, you could supply and switch 5 different loads (lights, sockets) separately. For shading (depending on direction), you need 2 phases.
The KNX bus uses 30V DC. Some sensors require their own power supply, while others get power through the bus itself. Black and red wires are for the bus, and yellow and gray wires are for power supply (which doesn’t seem logical to me, but never mind). That’s why the typical KNX cable has 4 cores.

Mycraft schrieb:

Wow, 16 buttons.

Just use standard photoelectric sensors, preferably with a 30V operating voltage so you can run them on the second pair of the bus cable. The switching output connects to a binary input. You develop the logic yourself.

This is what my mailbox looks like, for example. Of course, you could also use two magnetic contacts, but I found the photoelectric sensors more accurate since they only detect when there is actually something inside.




Just use a bit of imagination. Temperatures are reported to the bus, and logic switches the corresponding lighting effects accordingly. You can also monitor time schedules. With KNX, that’s easy to set up. It’s quite specialized, but some people need it. I know someone else who gets push notifications with measured temperatures from their meat. Everyone has their quirks and sometimes enjoys customizing things extensively.

Yes, that’s how it should be done – run the bus cable everywhere possible. I keep saying that, but people often say it’s unnecessary. However, that’s not true. Later on, you will need the cable, as RomeoZwo proved with his shading system.

Well, as I just said, if the bus cable had been run everywhere, the shading system could have been connected in no time. (Roller tube X-Line)

For the bus cable, use the commercially available J-Y(St)Y 2x2x0.8 cable. At that price, you can’t complain, and it’s approved for all bus applications. Sure, you could adapt CAT or DMX cables, but why would you? If there’s no other way, consider it, but for new builds, just install the green bus cable everywhere and that’s it. You might end up using 3–4–5 rolls, but at about €35 per roll, it’s not a big deal. The power cables (NYM) have to be installed anyway, so the green cable alongside won’t interfere.

Where you only really plan sensors (motion detectors, switches, etc.), of course, just the green bus cable is sufficient, as RomeoZwo already mentioned.

Thank you very much for the explanations.

And thanks also for the information about cables.
I have one more question: assuming we don’t run bus cable everywhere, will I still have options later on to convert a normal socket outlet into a switchable one?

I also have a question about push buttons. The goal is, of course, to install as few as possible, but you probably cannot avoid them completely, especially at the beginning when not everything is perfectly programmed yet. At least in the early phase, you will still operate some things manually via buttons until the project is gradually expanded with scenes.
There are thousands of options for that. Assuming, just for the sake of simpler conversation here, that we limit ourselves to the MDT product range… Unfortunately, I am not allowed to link, so I’ll try to describe this as precisely as possible.
Take, for example, the "Glass Push Button II Smart" and the "Glass Operating Centre Smart". I’m not entirely sure how to use these. Do I understand correctly that the Glass Push Button is primarily a push button for lights, shading, scenes, etc., and the Operating Centre is basically a control unit for the whole house? Even if that is true, I still don’t fully understand what I can do with one and what I can do with the other, or vice versa. And if I had both, would I use them independently or together?

Tarnari schrieb:

One more question: if we don’t install a bus cable everywhere, will I still be able to convert a standard socket into a switched one later on?

Only if that socket is connected to a dedicated phase (line conductor). This needs to be planned during the wiring stage. Often, non-switched sockets in a room share a common line conductor, at least those that are “in the circuit.” If the socket has a bus cable (KNX), you can control it using an in-wall actuator. One solution requires an additional phase, the other requires a KNX bus cable and an in-wall actuator (about 60€).

Tarnari schrieb:

Is it still possible later to convert a standard outlet into a switched one?

As RomeoZwo already mentioned, you need a dedicated circuit from the distribution board. I usually recommend wiring the outlets in each room with a 5-core 1.5 mm² NYM cable so you always have three phases available in the room. This way, you can easily rewire the outlets later if your needs change and make them switched.

Typically, one phase is left on constant power, where the non-switched outlets are connected, and the other two phases can be wired as needed. Make sure to use deep junction boxes, and this setup will work well.

If the three phases are ever not enough, a bus cable can be used along with an additional flush-mounted actuator to help out.

Tarnari schrieb:

Glastaster II Smart

Controls common devices like lighting and heating, with integrated logic functions. It has 6 touch buttons.

Tarnari schrieb:

Glasbedienzentrale Smart

This is an addition to the Glastaster. It includes extra logic, a code lock, timers, etc. It only has 4 touch buttons.

However, I haven’t handled it myself, so I can’t guarantee these details.

Mycraft schrieb:

As RomeoZwo already mentioned, you need a dedicated phase running all the way to the distribution board. I usually recommend wiring the sockets in each room with a single 5x1.5 NYM cable so that you always have three phases available in the room and can later reconfigure sockets quickly if your needs change, including making them switchable.

Typically, one phase is left on constant power with the permanently powered sockets connected there, while the other two phases can be assigned as needed. Use deep junction boxes and it will work fine.

If three phases are eventually not enough, you can use the bus cable and add an additional flush-mount actuator to help out.

Handles standard devices, heating, etc., and comes with built-in logic. Has 6 touch panels.

Should be seen as a supplement to the glass switch. It includes additional logic, a code lock, timers, etc., but only has 4 touch panels.

I haven’t physically handled it myself yet, so no guarantees.

If I understand correctly, one of the main advantages is that this device can, for example, send holidays to the bus system, calculate sunrise and sunset times, and also has a timer that can communicate via the bus. Is that really necessary? Or how have you solved such functions?

Our electrician plans to install two of them, one in the hallway on the upper floor and one on the lower floor.