Ok, now let’s think about the topic from a practical perspective. I’m quite familiar with KNX, but I can’t really come up with a scenario where KNX would clearly benefit us. Here are our floor plans again:
According to the current planning status, roller shutters will be installed everywhere (current planning status!). There will be a large sun sail to shade the central window and the dining room window from the sun. The dining room window facing east and the kitchen window will be in the shade shortly after noon.
A heat pump with cooling function and a ground loop exchanger for the controlled ventilation system are planned. Simple logic functions, such as bypass for the controlled ventilation or controlling the underfloor heating based on outside and return temperatures, are handled by the devices themselves. In winter, when the sun heats the floor, the return flow temperature rises, and the heat pump realizes it needs to heat less because of the external heat input. The ventilation system detects when the bypass should be activated.
Individual room control is pointless, or so everyone says in the pink forum. At least for our KfW55-standard building, it’s probably very unnecessary. Night setback is also not needed.
Energy-saving functions don’t interest me because the investment cost will always be higher than the electricity savings. Conventional smoke detectors will be installed, and please no hysterical discussions about this. There will be no gas, oil, or fireplace in the house. And if the house burns down while we’re away, it’s insured. There will be no photovoltaic system, and I’m not interested in any other extreme energy-saving measures. The washing machine has its own timer. Usually, we just load it in the afternoon and hang the laundry in the evening. It doesn’t need to run for three hours at night because of lower tariffs to save 0.3 cents per wash cycle.
The living/dining/kitchen area will have six roller shutters and four dimmable lights. Three shutters and two lights each will be controlled from switches next to the living room door and the kitchen door. The switches are arranged side by side so that the leftmost switch controls the left side of the room, and so on. So the west, south, and central living areas are controlled from the living room door; the south dining area, east dining area, and east kitchen are controlled from the kitchen door. For shading, only the two roller shutters next to the living room are relevant (south living room, as it is not under the sun sail, and west living room).
Currently, in the old building, we have internal blinds and a large west-facing facade. Apart from the five warmest days of the year, we don’t fully shade the windows. We just want to avoid direct sunlight where we are sitting, working, playing, etc. Depending on the situation, some blinds go up and others go down, and so on.
Constant light regulation is not desired. Even now, we switch lights on and off based on feeling. When we want to go to bed soon, the lights are usually off or more distant lights are on (kind of indirect lighting). I have different lighting preferences than my wife, and when we are together in the room, naturally, a compromise solution applies.
I sometimes work flexible hours, and sometimes I might sleep only four hours one night and seven hours the next day. A rule like “dim after xx o’clock” won’t work.
There is no defined TV lighting plan. It depends on the program. For briefly watching the news, all lighting can remain as is. For a moderately interesting football game, only the direct light is turned off, but indirect lighting can stay. For a ‘Game of Thrones’ episode or a good movie, everything should be off, especially since these often have dark scenes. Sometimes, for example, the hallway light stays on as indirect lighting for the living area (which makes sole hallway lighting with motion sensors pointless now).
Hallway lighting will have switches (two-way switches) next to each door, which can turn the lighting of the respective floor on and off. So yes, exactly one switch next to each door. The two lamps upstairs will switch on and off simultaneously. It is a floor-level switch. At stair landings, of course, there are exactly two switches: one for upstairs and one for downstairs. So, coming down the stairs, you can operate both switches to turn lights off upstairs and on downstairs. Or you turn off the upstairs light at the bottom of the stairs (top switch off = upstairs off; makes perfect sense to me).
Stair lighting could theoretically be controlled similarly, but that also depends a bit on the show effect, right? It could also be done with a timer or motion sensor. And if pets trigger the stair lighting, well, that’s just how it is. At the moment, we don’t have pets.
As for roller shutter control in the living/dining/kitchen areas, as I said before: short press for fully up/down and hold for precise positioning. But half-positioning is discouraged because temperature differences across the glass can cause damage. For example, next to the living room door, pressing the button three times briefly will raise (or lower) the three shutters. All other roller shutters follow the same principle and are arranged next to their respective doors. Only for bedrooms could I imagine a switch with a timer function, and I would only program the opening time for the next morning. I don’t need a closing time. A short press closes the roller shutter. But if I set my alarm clock to 6:53, I also set the roller shutter to 6:53 so that daylight wakes me at the same time (in the future, we will have joint wake-up times again, and my wife won’t have shift work anymore). BUT: all this can be done conventionally and very simply. So: the office (guest room), bedroom, and two children's rooms will have a switch (short = fully up/down) that allows an opening time to be set.
Just to summarize the shading logic during the day: roller shutters go down in the morning when leaving the room/living area and stay down until the first person returns home in the afternoon. This covers the first 10–12 hours of sunlight exposure.
The lighting in many rooms will be dimmable, but I don’t want expensive color lighting effects. The bulbs should have low blue light and good quality.
So, I think I’ve described the most important areas: roller shutters, lighting, heating, and a few other things...
How can automation like KNX help us now? What comfort gains are possible? What should we automate and why?
According to the current planning status, roller shutters will be installed everywhere (current planning status!). There will be a large sun sail to shade the central window and the dining room window from the sun. The dining room window facing east and the kitchen window will be in the shade shortly after noon.
A heat pump with cooling function and a ground loop exchanger for the controlled ventilation system are planned. Simple logic functions, such as bypass for the controlled ventilation or controlling the underfloor heating based on outside and return temperatures, are handled by the devices themselves. In winter, when the sun heats the floor, the return flow temperature rises, and the heat pump realizes it needs to heat less because of the external heat input. The ventilation system detects when the bypass should be activated.
Individual room control is pointless, or so everyone says in the pink forum. At least for our KfW55-standard building, it’s probably very unnecessary. Night setback is also not needed.
Energy-saving functions don’t interest me because the investment cost will always be higher than the electricity savings. Conventional smoke detectors will be installed, and please no hysterical discussions about this. There will be no gas, oil, or fireplace in the house. And if the house burns down while we’re away, it’s insured. There will be no photovoltaic system, and I’m not interested in any other extreme energy-saving measures. The washing machine has its own timer. Usually, we just load it in the afternoon and hang the laundry in the evening. It doesn’t need to run for three hours at night because of lower tariffs to save 0.3 cents per wash cycle.
The living/dining/kitchen area will have six roller shutters and four dimmable lights. Three shutters and two lights each will be controlled from switches next to the living room door and the kitchen door. The switches are arranged side by side so that the leftmost switch controls the left side of the room, and so on. So the west, south, and central living areas are controlled from the living room door; the south dining area, east dining area, and east kitchen are controlled from the kitchen door. For shading, only the two roller shutters next to the living room are relevant (south living room, as it is not under the sun sail, and west living room).
Currently, in the old building, we have internal blinds and a large west-facing facade. Apart from the five warmest days of the year, we don’t fully shade the windows. We just want to avoid direct sunlight where we are sitting, working, playing, etc. Depending on the situation, some blinds go up and others go down, and so on.
Constant light regulation is not desired. Even now, we switch lights on and off based on feeling. When we want to go to bed soon, the lights are usually off or more distant lights are on (kind of indirect lighting). I have different lighting preferences than my wife, and when we are together in the room, naturally, a compromise solution applies.
I sometimes work flexible hours, and sometimes I might sleep only four hours one night and seven hours the next day. A rule like “dim after xx o’clock” won’t work.
There is no defined TV lighting plan. It depends on the program. For briefly watching the news, all lighting can remain as is. For a moderately interesting football game, only the direct light is turned off, but indirect lighting can stay. For a ‘Game of Thrones’ episode or a good movie, everything should be off, especially since these often have dark scenes. Sometimes, for example, the hallway light stays on as indirect lighting for the living area (which makes sole hallway lighting with motion sensors pointless now).
Hallway lighting will have switches (two-way switches) next to each door, which can turn the lighting of the respective floor on and off. So yes, exactly one switch next to each door. The two lamps upstairs will switch on and off simultaneously. It is a floor-level switch. At stair landings, of course, there are exactly two switches: one for upstairs and one for downstairs. So, coming down the stairs, you can operate both switches to turn lights off upstairs and on downstairs. Or you turn off the upstairs light at the bottom of the stairs (top switch off = upstairs off; makes perfect sense to me).
Stair lighting could theoretically be controlled similarly, but that also depends a bit on the show effect, right? It could also be done with a timer or motion sensor. And if pets trigger the stair lighting, well, that’s just how it is. At the moment, we don’t have pets.
As for roller shutter control in the living/dining/kitchen areas, as I said before: short press for fully up/down and hold for precise positioning. But half-positioning is discouraged because temperature differences across the glass can cause damage. For example, next to the living room door, pressing the button three times briefly will raise (or lower) the three shutters. All other roller shutters follow the same principle and are arranged next to their respective doors. Only for bedrooms could I imagine a switch with a timer function, and I would only program the opening time for the next morning. I don’t need a closing time. A short press closes the roller shutter. But if I set my alarm clock to 6:53, I also set the roller shutter to 6:53 so that daylight wakes me at the same time (in the future, we will have joint wake-up times again, and my wife won’t have shift work anymore). BUT: all this can be done conventionally and very simply. So: the office (guest room), bedroom, and two children's rooms will have a switch (short = fully up/down) that allows an opening time to be set.
Just to summarize the shading logic during the day: roller shutters go down in the morning when leaving the room/living area and stay down until the first person returns home in the afternoon. This covers the first 10–12 hours of sunlight exposure.
The lighting in many rooms will be dimmable, but I don’t want expensive color lighting effects. The bulbs should have low blue light and good quality.
So, I think I’ve described the most important areas: roller shutters, lighting, heating, and a few other things...
How can automation like KNX help us now? What comfort gains are possible? What should we automate and why?
Mycraft schrieb:
In Grym we have a person who is annoyed by automation at work and partly refuses technology for that reason... whether someone with just basic parameter settings was involved here, I don’t know... but it could be... What? Not at all...
At work, we have a manual venetian blind that is electrically operated. We raise and lower it or adjust the tilt as needed, sometimes setting it flatter. We also have an air conditioning system, but it operates more or less according to our preferences, not fully automatically.
Annoyed? No. It does what it’s supposed to do. The venetian blind protects against the sun, and the air conditioning cools when needed.
Mycraft schrieb:
What is this, and how do I operate it?
I don’t want it just for fun. Oh, look, I can lower the blinds with voice control instead of quickly pressing a button here. Oh, look, I set the dining scene (tablet on, select scene, dining scene, tablet off = 4 actions) instead of just turning the light on here and dimming it there (dining light up; kitchen light down = 2 actions). But maybe there’s a real benefit beyond just the fun?A scene is a function stored in the actuators/sensors that you trigger by pressing a button. No one needs a tablet for that. A scene starts an automated sequence. With one button press, I can carry out any number of actions. AND NO ONE NEEDS A TABLET FOR THIS. I don’t understand why everyone is so obsessed with that silly tablet. Of course, I can use a tablet, but I don’t have to.
When it comes to planning, the key to a good KNX design is leaving things out. If I have someone plan it who thinks in the usual way, there will be motion or presence detectors at every door plus an extra switch. That switch is actually unnecessary.
When I drive the car into the garage, the lights in the garage, stairwell, and hallway turn on if it’s too dark there. If I enter the garage on foot (no garage door command in the last 2 minutes), only the garage light turns on. And so on—these are all things that standard KNX functionality can already do.
Do you really need this? No, you don’t. But I want it. I walk through the house without worrying, leave the office at night knowing everything is off when I fall asleep. Sometimes I just go downstairs for dinner and don’t feel like going back to the office. Then my house turns off the lights and closes the blinds. Do I need this? No, but it’s relaxing. Oh, and the monitor, printer, and some other office devices also turn off when there’s no one around.
As mycraft already showed, even if you put a switch at every door, the KNX components are usually powerful enough that you can trigger many actions with a single “one-gang” device, whether scenes or individual actions.
And once you get used to it, you don’t want to miss it.
So for me, a house without KNX is no longer an option! And I wouldn’t want to give up my synohr either, even if it’s just for fun. But before I get up and leave my wife’s side to turn off the light, I’d rather say “James—good night…” and the house takes care of the rest.
With that, sweet dreams!
@Grym: This is a switch that you simply press.
Two more switches, both for a flush-mounted box.
You just press the labeled buttons. The labels can be changed dynamically, and you can set up to four levels. This allows the main function to always be on the top level, while the smaller switch can trigger 4 actions and the larger one 8 actions.
Two more switches, both for a flush-mounted box.
You just press the labeled buttons. The labels can be changed dynamically, and you can set up to four levels. This allows the main function to always be on the top level, while the smaller switch can trigger 4 actions and the larger one 8 actions.
Yes, this is a typical KNX touch sensor, commonly referred to as a switch, and it is located on the door frame. The tactile feedback is often designed to resemble a conventional push button, providing a clear pressure point.
I will stick to one series...
You can configure it for just a single function:
or like this with three rocker switches:
as in my example with three rockers and RTR:
or also like this:
depending on how many functions you need at that location. The buttons are freely programmable, meaning you can assign
- top left: light ON and top right: light OFF
- top left: increase brightness and top right: decrease brightness
- top left: increase brightness / stop / decrease brightness and top right: set light to 30%
- top left: activate TV scene / top right: turn on blue RGB strip
and so on; the possibilities are almost endless.
If you also have the version with RTR, you can control the room temperature through it, and the currently set parameters, operating modes, and temperatures are displayed directly.
What you install on the wall is up to you. A simple ON/OFF switch is enough in a storage room, maybe 2 rockers are needed in the study, and 3 in the kitchen.
All the touch sensors I mentioned have the same connection on the back of the bus coupler (flush-mount insert):
That is the bus cable...
1 - the sensor (switch) in the illustration
2 - the interface between sensor and bus coupler
3 - the bus coupler
In other words, you can swap switches/buttons as you like. If you want to add or remove new functions in the living room, kitchen, or bedroom, such as groups of roller shutters, just replace the touch sensor and coupling with one that has more functions (regardless of the manufacturer), then reprogram the sensor. This way you gain more convenience without having to lay additional cables.
Additionally, the new generations of touch sensors often have integrated bus couplers, which usually lowers the purchase price and makes replacements even easier.
I will stick to one series...
You can configure it for just a single function:
or like this with three rocker switches:
as in my example with three rockers and RTR:
or also like this:
depending on how many functions you need at that location. The buttons are freely programmable, meaning you can assign
- top left: light ON and top right: light OFF
- top left: increase brightness and top right: decrease brightness
- top left: increase brightness / stop / decrease brightness and top right: set light to 30%
- top left: activate TV scene / top right: turn on blue RGB strip
and so on; the possibilities are almost endless.
If you also have the version with RTR, you can control the room temperature through it, and the currently set parameters, operating modes, and temperatures are displayed directly.
What you install on the wall is up to you. A simple ON/OFF switch is enough in a storage room, maybe 2 rockers are needed in the study, and 3 in the kitchen.
All the touch sensors I mentioned have the same connection on the back of the bus coupler (flush-mount insert):
That is the bus cable...
1 - the sensor (switch) in the illustration
2 - the interface between sensor and bus coupler
3 - the bus coupler
In other words, you can swap switches/buttons as you like. If you want to add or remove new functions in the living room, kitchen, or bedroom, such as groups of roller shutters, just replace the touch sensor and coupling with one that has more functions (regardless of the manufacturer), then reprogram the sensor. This way you gain more convenience without having to lay additional cables.
Additionally, the new generations of touch sensors often have integrated bus couplers, which usually lowers the purchase price and makes replacements even easier.
So, what exactly is included in a "fully functional" KNX installation? Everything wired in a star topology, of course. Does every power outlet also get a bus line, or are the outlets controlled centrally?
Do all light and shutter switches each have a bus coupler (standard?) and a replaceable push button? For my example living room, where I want to control 2 lights and 3 shutters, would I use a 5-gang rocker switch and RTR? Does this push button also measure temperature and humidity?
What else belongs to a "fully functional" KNX installation?
- Weather station!? (including sun and wind sensors for venetian blinds)
- Window contacts on every window to detect if open, tilted, or closed?
- Integration of smoke detectors?
Do heating and ventilation systems need to be KNX-compatible?
Do all light and shutter switches each have a bus coupler (standard?) and a replaceable push button? For my example living room, where I want to control 2 lights and 3 shutters, would I use a 5-gang rocker switch and RTR? Does this push button also measure temperature and humidity?
What else belongs to a "fully functional" KNX installation?
- Weather station!? (including sun and wind sensors for venetian blinds)
- Window contacts on every window to detect if open, tilted, or closed?
- Integration of smoke detectors?
Do heating and ventilation systems need to be KNX-compatible?