Ok, now let’s think about the topic from a practical perspective. I’m quite familiar with KNX, but I can’t really come up with a scenario where KNX would clearly benefit us. Here are our floor plans again:
According to the current planning status, roller shutters will be installed everywhere (current planning status!). There will be a large sun sail to shade the central window and the dining room window from the sun. The dining room window facing east and the kitchen window will be in the shade shortly after noon.
A heat pump with cooling function and a ground loop exchanger for the controlled ventilation system are planned. Simple logic functions, such as bypass for the controlled ventilation or controlling the underfloor heating based on outside and return temperatures, are handled by the devices themselves. In winter, when the sun heats the floor, the return flow temperature rises, and the heat pump realizes it needs to heat less because of the external heat input. The ventilation system detects when the bypass should be activated.
Individual room control is pointless, or so everyone says in the pink forum. At least for our KfW55-standard building, it’s probably very unnecessary. Night setback is also not needed.
Energy-saving functions don’t interest me because the investment cost will always be higher than the electricity savings. Conventional smoke detectors will be installed, and please no hysterical discussions about this. There will be no gas, oil, or fireplace in the house. And if the house burns down while we’re away, it’s insured. There will be no photovoltaic system, and I’m not interested in any other extreme energy-saving measures. The washing machine has its own timer. Usually, we just load it in the afternoon and hang the laundry in the evening. It doesn’t need to run for three hours at night because of lower tariffs to save 0.3 cents per wash cycle.
The living/dining/kitchen area will have six roller shutters and four dimmable lights. Three shutters and two lights each will be controlled from switches next to the living room door and the kitchen door. The switches are arranged side by side so that the leftmost switch controls the left side of the room, and so on. So the west, south, and central living areas are controlled from the living room door; the south dining area, east dining area, and east kitchen are controlled from the kitchen door. For shading, only the two roller shutters next to the living room are relevant (south living room, as it is not under the sun sail, and west living room).
Currently, in the old building, we have internal blinds and a large west-facing facade. Apart from the five warmest days of the year, we don’t fully shade the windows. We just want to avoid direct sunlight where we are sitting, working, playing, etc. Depending on the situation, some blinds go up and others go down, and so on.
Constant light regulation is not desired. Even now, we switch lights on and off based on feeling. When we want to go to bed soon, the lights are usually off or more distant lights are on (kind of indirect lighting). I have different lighting preferences than my wife, and when we are together in the room, naturally, a compromise solution applies.
I sometimes work flexible hours, and sometimes I might sleep only four hours one night and seven hours the next day. A rule like “dim after xx o’clock” won’t work.
There is no defined TV lighting plan. It depends on the program. For briefly watching the news, all lighting can remain as is. For a moderately interesting football game, only the direct light is turned off, but indirect lighting can stay. For a ‘Game of Thrones’ episode or a good movie, everything should be off, especially since these often have dark scenes. Sometimes, for example, the hallway light stays on as indirect lighting for the living area (which makes sole hallway lighting with motion sensors pointless now).
Hallway lighting will have switches (two-way switches) next to each door, which can turn the lighting of the respective floor on and off. So yes, exactly one switch next to each door. The two lamps upstairs will switch on and off simultaneously. It is a floor-level switch. At stair landings, of course, there are exactly two switches: one for upstairs and one for downstairs. So, coming down the stairs, you can operate both switches to turn lights off upstairs and on downstairs. Or you turn off the upstairs light at the bottom of the stairs (top switch off = upstairs off; makes perfect sense to me).
Stair lighting could theoretically be controlled similarly, but that also depends a bit on the show effect, right? It could also be done with a timer or motion sensor. And if pets trigger the stair lighting, well, that’s just how it is. At the moment, we don’t have pets.
As for roller shutter control in the living/dining/kitchen areas, as I said before: short press for fully up/down and hold for precise positioning. But half-positioning is discouraged because temperature differences across the glass can cause damage. For example, next to the living room door, pressing the button three times briefly will raise (or lower) the three shutters. All other roller shutters follow the same principle and are arranged next to their respective doors. Only for bedrooms could I imagine a switch with a timer function, and I would only program the opening time for the next morning. I don’t need a closing time. A short press closes the roller shutter. But if I set my alarm clock to 6:53, I also set the roller shutter to 6:53 so that daylight wakes me at the same time (in the future, we will have joint wake-up times again, and my wife won’t have shift work anymore). BUT: all this can be done conventionally and very simply. So: the office (guest room), bedroom, and two children's rooms will have a switch (short = fully up/down) that allows an opening time to be set.
Just to summarize the shading logic during the day: roller shutters go down in the morning when leaving the room/living area and stay down until the first person returns home in the afternoon. This covers the first 10–12 hours of sunlight exposure.
The lighting in many rooms will be dimmable, but I don’t want expensive color lighting effects. The bulbs should have low blue light and good quality.
So, I think I’ve described the most important areas: roller shutters, lighting, heating, and a few other things...
How can automation like KNX help us now? What comfort gains are possible? What should we automate and why?
According to the current planning status, roller shutters will be installed everywhere (current planning status!). There will be a large sun sail to shade the central window and the dining room window from the sun. The dining room window facing east and the kitchen window will be in the shade shortly after noon.
A heat pump with cooling function and a ground loop exchanger for the controlled ventilation system are planned. Simple logic functions, such as bypass for the controlled ventilation or controlling the underfloor heating based on outside and return temperatures, are handled by the devices themselves. In winter, when the sun heats the floor, the return flow temperature rises, and the heat pump realizes it needs to heat less because of the external heat input. The ventilation system detects when the bypass should be activated.
Individual room control is pointless, or so everyone says in the pink forum. At least for our KfW55-standard building, it’s probably very unnecessary. Night setback is also not needed.
Energy-saving functions don’t interest me because the investment cost will always be higher than the electricity savings. Conventional smoke detectors will be installed, and please no hysterical discussions about this. There will be no gas, oil, or fireplace in the house. And if the house burns down while we’re away, it’s insured. There will be no photovoltaic system, and I’m not interested in any other extreme energy-saving measures. The washing machine has its own timer. Usually, we just load it in the afternoon and hang the laundry in the evening. It doesn’t need to run for three hours at night because of lower tariffs to save 0.3 cents per wash cycle.
The living/dining/kitchen area will have six roller shutters and four dimmable lights. Three shutters and two lights each will be controlled from switches next to the living room door and the kitchen door. The switches are arranged side by side so that the leftmost switch controls the left side of the room, and so on. So the west, south, and central living areas are controlled from the living room door; the south dining area, east dining area, and east kitchen are controlled from the kitchen door. For shading, only the two roller shutters next to the living room are relevant (south living room, as it is not under the sun sail, and west living room).
Currently, in the old building, we have internal blinds and a large west-facing facade. Apart from the five warmest days of the year, we don’t fully shade the windows. We just want to avoid direct sunlight where we are sitting, working, playing, etc. Depending on the situation, some blinds go up and others go down, and so on.
Constant light regulation is not desired. Even now, we switch lights on and off based on feeling. When we want to go to bed soon, the lights are usually off or more distant lights are on (kind of indirect lighting). I have different lighting preferences than my wife, and when we are together in the room, naturally, a compromise solution applies.
I sometimes work flexible hours, and sometimes I might sleep only four hours one night and seven hours the next day. A rule like “dim after xx o’clock” won’t work.
There is no defined TV lighting plan. It depends on the program. For briefly watching the news, all lighting can remain as is. For a moderately interesting football game, only the direct light is turned off, but indirect lighting can stay. For a ‘Game of Thrones’ episode or a good movie, everything should be off, especially since these often have dark scenes. Sometimes, for example, the hallway light stays on as indirect lighting for the living area (which makes sole hallway lighting with motion sensors pointless now).
Hallway lighting will have switches (two-way switches) next to each door, which can turn the lighting of the respective floor on and off. So yes, exactly one switch next to each door. The two lamps upstairs will switch on and off simultaneously. It is a floor-level switch. At stair landings, of course, there are exactly two switches: one for upstairs and one for downstairs. So, coming down the stairs, you can operate both switches to turn lights off upstairs and on downstairs. Or you turn off the upstairs light at the bottom of the stairs (top switch off = upstairs off; makes perfect sense to me).
Stair lighting could theoretically be controlled similarly, but that also depends a bit on the show effect, right? It could also be done with a timer or motion sensor. And if pets trigger the stair lighting, well, that’s just how it is. At the moment, we don’t have pets.
As for roller shutter control in the living/dining/kitchen areas, as I said before: short press for fully up/down and hold for precise positioning. But half-positioning is discouraged because temperature differences across the glass can cause damage. For example, next to the living room door, pressing the button three times briefly will raise (or lower) the three shutters. All other roller shutters follow the same principle and are arranged next to their respective doors. Only for bedrooms could I imagine a switch with a timer function, and I would only program the opening time for the next morning. I don’t need a closing time. A short press closes the roller shutter. But if I set my alarm clock to 6:53, I also set the roller shutter to 6:53 so that daylight wakes me at the same time (in the future, we will have joint wake-up times again, and my wife won’t have shift work anymore). BUT: all this can be done conventionally and very simply. So: the office (guest room), bedroom, and two children's rooms will have a switch (short = fully up/down) that allows an opening time to be set.
Just to summarize the shading logic during the day: roller shutters go down in the morning when leaving the room/living area and stay down until the first person returns home in the afternoon. This covers the first 10–12 hours of sunlight exposure.
The lighting in many rooms will be dimmable, but I don’t want expensive color lighting effects. The bulbs should have low blue light and good quality.
So, I think I’ve described the most important areas: roller shutters, lighting, heating, and a few other things...
How can automation like KNX help us now? What comfort gains are possible? What should we automate and why?
S
Sebastian7927 Aug 2016 07:26I don’t understand the thread – with that attitude, you would never install any automation, and, typical of Grym, everything is explained so logically for himself that any counterargument would just get brushed aside.
Just do everything exactly as you want it and then you’ll be satisfied.
Instead of a two-way switch setup, I would recommend a momentary push-button switch circuit – it’s nicer anyway.
Just do everything exactly as you want it and then you’ll be satisfied.
Instead of a two-way switch setup, I would recommend a momentary push-button switch circuit – it’s nicer anyway.
I feel the same way as Sebastian; I don’t understand what you want.
If you have worked with KNX, then you know the possibilities. If you don’t need them, just go with a traditional setup. The advantage of KNX is group switching solutions and automation. If you don’t want or need that, then just build it the traditional way.
Personally, I’m a supporter of KNX, but if someone doesn’t need it, why try to convince them otherwise? That’s the impression I get from this thread.
The advantages for blinds or shutters would be a) automatic raising and lowering, and b) creating any groups you want. For example, all blinds on the west or south side of the house.
Another advantage of KNX is minimizing rows of switches. In my case, I have six blinds in the living room, so the scenes and group functions of KNX are very helpful. One button activates a specific scenario, e.g., watching TV, blinds down, lights dimmed (or the hallway light comes on). Sure, you can do this the traditional way by going to each window and pressing a switch and then going to the hallway to turn on the light. The result is the same. Or you could press five different switches. I have six blinds and four ceiling lamps in the living room. That would be 10 traditional switches or one KNX MDT Smart 2 switch for 113€ that fits in a flush-mounted box. With it, I can control everything individually or by scenarios—whichever I prefer. And I don’t have two rows of five switches on the wall.
There are many more things you can do with it. Many ideas only come up after you’ve moved into the house. And since the wiring is different from the traditional setup, you have more possibilities.
In a traditional installation, for example, the cable runs from the distribution board to the switch, and from the switch to the ceiling. With KNX, the cable runs directly from the distribution board to the ceiling. This simplifies installation and makes it easier to change the function later. The same basically applies to power outlets and other consumers. And, of course, this also applies to the blinds.
If you have worked with KNX, then you know the possibilities. If you don’t need them, just go with a traditional setup. The advantage of KNX is group switching solutions and automation. If you don’t want or need that, then just build it the traditional way.
Personally, I’m a supporter of KNX, but if someone doesn’t need it, why try to convince them otherwise? That’s the impression I get from this thread.
The advantages for blinds or shutters would be a) automatic raising and lowering, and b) creating any groups you want. For example, all blinds on the west or south side of the house.
Another advantage of KNX is minimizing rows of switches. In my case, I have six blinds in the living room, so the scenes and group functions of KNX are very helpful. One button activates a specific scenario, e.g., watching TV, blinds down, lights dimmed (or the hallway light comes on). Sure, you can do this the traditional way by going to each window and pressing a switch and then going to the hallway to turn on the light. The result is the same. Or you could press five different switches. I have six blinds and four ceiling lamps in the living room. That would be 10 traditional switches or one KNX MDT Smart 2 switch for 113€ that fits in a flush-mounted box. With it, I can control everything individually or by scenarios—whichever I prefer. And I don’t have two rows of five switches on the wall.
There are many more things you can do with it. Many ideas only come up after you’ve moved into the house. And since the wiring is different from the traditional setup, you have more possibilities.
In a traditional installation, for example, the cable runs from the distribution board to the switch, and from the switch to the ceiling. With KNX, the cable runs directly from the distribution board to the ceiling. This simplifies installation and makes it easier to change the function later. The same basically applies to power outlets and other consumers. And, of course, this also applies to the blinds.
For me, there is a clear reason for KNX/central control that, in my opinion, cannot be beaten:
Central OFF at the front door
By now, I know too many dramatic and sad stories of houses destroyed by fire, where the owners were not at fault at all. That’s why I want to avoid this as much as possible. However, I also don’t want to unplug every device manually after use. So, really, the only option left is to cut the power supply.
But since there are devices today that need to stay on, you can’t just switch off the entire house power centrally. Some things must remain powered. Up to this point, you could still do this with conventional wiring, but it would already be quite complex in terms of cabling.
However, as soon as something changes, a device is added or rearranged, conventional wiring becomes impractical. This is where programmable control comes into play. Simply program the other socket to supply power to the changed or new device, and that’s it.
This way, I can easily switch off everything unimportant whenever I want.
This was the main trigger that led me to automation/control.
All other functions that, for example, KNX would offer are, of course, also interesting for me as a tech-savvy person, but only as a bonus.
One more thing:
The attitude of “if there’s a fire, I’m insured” can only come from someone who has never had to face the real consequences of a fire.
Central OFF at the front door
By now, I know too many dramatic and sad stories of houses destroyed by fire, where the owners were not at fault at all. That’s why I want to avoid this as much as possible. However, I also don’t want to unplug every device manually after use. So, really, the only option left is to cut the power supply.
But since there are devices today that need to stay on, you can’t just switch off the entire house power centrally. Some things must remain powered. Up to this point, you could still do this with conventional wiring, but it would already be quite complex in terms of cabling.
However, as soon as something changes, a device is added or rearranged, conventional wiring becomes impractical. This is where programmable control comes into play. Simply program the other socket to supply power to the changed or new device, and that’s it.
This way, I can easily switch off everything unimportant whenever I want.
This was the main trigger that led me to automation/control.
All other functions that, for example, KNX would offer are, of course, also interesting for me as a tech-savvy person, but only as a bonus.
One more thing:
The attitude of “if there’s a fire, I’m insured” can only come from someone who has never had to face the real consequences of a fire.
Just brainstorming – whether this is possible with KNX or not:
Door opens via facial recognition
House detects if people are still inside and switches off predefined power outlets when empty
House displays total electricity consumption centrally (identifies forgotten devices / standby consumers)
Intelligent presence simulation (with some randomness)
Illuminance level is measured – lighting automatically adjusts (on/off/brighter)
Phone calls are managed through voice control and speakers and microphones installed in rooms (house detects where the person is)
Door opens via facial recognition
House detects if people are still inside and switches off predefined power outlets when empty
House displays total electricity consumption centrally (identifies forgotten devices / standby consumers)
Intelligent presence simulation (with some randomness)
Illuminance level is measured – lighting automatically adjusts (on/off/brighter)
Phone calls are managed through voice control and speakers and microphones installed in rooms (house detects where the person is)
BeHaElJa schrieb:
Door opens with facial recognitionI wouldn’t do that, it seems too insecure... but it is still feasible.
The rest is quite straightforward...
However, the part about phone calls is unclear to me... there are simpler ways to identify who is where.