P
Pipilotta8 May 2013 15:59Dear Forum,
After trying to find a quote that meets both our requirements and budget (300,000€ turnkey with foundation slab, approximately 170 m² (1,830 sq ft) of living space, KfW55 standard, timber frame "building biologically sensible," underfloor heating, air-source heat pump, controlled mechanical ventilation), a friend who is a building technician advised us as follows. We should decide how we want our house to look and how we want it equipped. Then he will draw up a plan and a specification for a turnkey house, which we can send to builders within a reasonable radius. He believes this approach will definitely help us get the best price-performance ratio. He will also assist us in comparing and reviewing the offers. For this, we would hire an independent assessor to carry out the inspections. What do you think about this approach?
Kind regards,
Pipilotta
After trying to find a quote that meets both our requirements and budget (300,000€ turnkey with foundation slab, approximately 170 m² (1,830 sq ft) of living space, KfW55 standard, timber frame "building biologically sensible," underfloor heating, air-source heat pump, controlled mechanical ventilation), a friend who is a building technician advised us as follows. We should decide how we want our house to look and how we want it equipped. Then he will draw up a plan and a specification for a turnkey house, which we can send to builders within a reasonable radius. He believes this approach will definitely help us get the best price-performance ratio. He will also assist us in comparing and reviewing the offers. For this, we would hire an independent assessor to carry out the inspections. What do you think about this approach?
Kind regards,
Pipilotta
M
mybaublog12 May 2013 15:14Hello,
I consider this approach to be very sensible.
We basically did almost the same as your acquaintance suggested, but with a solid construction.
After finalizing the entire floor plan in accordance with the building regulations, we started looking for a general contractor.
Gradually, however, we realized that working with a general contractor did not work out the way we had imagined.
We had many discussions, and at first, everything seemed possible. But when we asked further questions, the limitations and "catches" came to light.
Therefore, we decided to contract the trades individually and hire our own site management.
Many warned us against this approach since we had absolutely zero experience with construction and only knew, basically, that the basement is built first, then the ground floor, and only afterwards the upper floor. ;-)
With our floor plan, we turned to a planning office (not an architect) and ordered services 1–4 (planning until the building permit / planning permission was granted).
After that, we found a shell builder who organized the detailed planning, structural engineering, etc.
Based on the documents, we obtained quotes for heating, plumbing, electrical work, windows, roofing, and so on under his supervision and awarded the contracts ourselves.
You can see the result on our construction blog at mybaublog.de.
About 1.5 years ago, I read a post here on the forum where a building expert said... It probably won’t be cheaper overall, but it will be significantly higher quality... and that has proven true.
The advantages are:
- You choose each company yourself and get to know the tradespeople personally (a huge advantage)
- You don’t have to decide immediately on flooring, tiles, doors, etc., but can take your time and settle these details while construction is already underway
- You know exactly what you are getting, and not just “blah blah blah” or “a similar product from a well-known brand,” as is often stated in descriptions
- You can avoid the headaches caused by traps in site management contracts (we didn’t have any at all)
- You remain flexible and avoid hassle and high costs if you come up with things during construction that were forgotten or overlooked in the planning (usually extra sockets here, switches there, etc.)
- We paid only after the work was completed (for example, payment to the shell builder: basement finished – basement paid; ground floor finished – ground floor paid; roof finished and covered – the carpenter issued a single invoice – paid and done; windows installed – joiner issues invoice – paid and done). We never made advance payments beyond what was necessary and had no financial risk. We were also able to take advantage of discounts ourselves.
The construction lasted from May to December, and we would do it this way again anytime.
As I said, we built solid construction; I don’t know if this works the same way in prefabricated houses.
Best regards
mybaublog
I consider this approach to be very sensible.
We basically did almost the same as your acquaintance suggested, but with a solid construction.
After finalizing the entire floor plan in accordance with the building regulations, we started looking for a general contractor.
Gradually, however, we realized that working with a general contractor did not work out the way we had imagined.
We had many discussions, and at first, everything seemed possible. But when we asked further questions, the limitations and "catches" came to light.
Therefore, we decided to contract the trades individually and hire our own site management.
Many warned us against this approach since we had absolutely zero experience with construction and only knew, basically, that the basement is built first, then the ground floor, and only afterwards the upper floor. ;-)
With our floor plan, we turned to a planning office (not an architect) and ordered services 1–4 (planning until the building permit / planning permission was granted).
After that, we found a shell builder who organized the detailed planning, structural engineering, etc.
Based on the documents, we obtained quotes for heating, plumbing, electrical work, windows, roofing, and so on under his supervision and awarded the contracts ourselves.
You can see the result on our construction blog at mybaublog.de.
About 1.5 years ago, I read a post here on the forum where a building expert said... It probably won’t be cheaper overall, but it will be significantly higher quality... and that has proven true.
The advantages are:
- You choose each company yourself and get to know the tradespeople personally (a huge advantage)
- You don’t have to decide immediately on flooring, tiles, doors, etc., but can take your time and settle these details while construction is already underway
- You know exactly what you are getting, and not just “blah blah blah” or “a similar product from a well-known brand,” as is often stated in descriptions
- You can avoid the headaches caused by traps in site management contracts (we didn’t have any at all)
- You remain flexible and avoid hassle and high costs if you come up with things during construction that were forgotten or overlooked in the planning (usually extra sockets here, switches there, etc.)
- We paid only after the work was completed (for example, payment to the shell builder: basement finished – basement paid; ground floor finished – ground floor paid; roof finished and covered – the carpenter issued a single invoice – paid and done; windows installed – joiner issues invoice – paid and done). We never made advance payments beyond what was necessary and had no financial risk. We were also able to take advantage of discounts ourselves.
The construction lasted from May to December, and we would do it this way again anytime.
As I said, we built solid construction; I don’t know if this works the same way in prefabricated houses.
Best regards
mybaublog
This reads well and is quite exciting, and we are in exactly the same situation. Somehow, there are issues with the developers, construction specifications, etc. (or maybe we are just stressing too much ;-)). Your approach must be very planning-intensive and take a lot of time, right? How much lead time did you have?
P
Pipilotta19 May 2013 21:33Hello Emer,
The budget mainly excludes additional construction-related costs; connection fees, site development, notary fees, property transfer tax, etc., are included in our budget for the land. What’s definitely still missing are the exterior works. The carport should already be part of the house. However, we have now actually decided on a local supplier (whom we have been leaning towards for some time), after receiving an offer from a well-known affordable timber house builder in the area. The price advantage wasn’t that significant when you consider that we will definitely need help with the design planning and construction management. We have now landed at €315,000 including the foundation slab, carport, and a technical room in an extension. And the most important thing: we feel good about it! We have also been independently reassured by two carpenters who do not know each other.
Best regards,
Pipi
The budget mainly excludes additional construction-related costs; connection fees, site development, notary fees, property transfer tax, etc., are included in our budget for the land. What’s definitely still missing are the exterior works. The carport should already be part of the house. However, we have now actually decided on a local supplier (whom we have been leaning towards for some time), after receiving an offer from a well-known affordable timber house builder in the area. The price advantage wasn’t that significant when you consider that we will definitely need help with the design planning and construction management. We have now landed at €315,000 including the foundation slab, carport, and a technical room in an extension. And the most important thing: we feel good about it! We have also been independently reassured by two carpenters who do not know each other.
Best regards,
Pipi
M
mybaublog20 May 2013 20:28@Leon
I don’t feel that our planning process was more intensive or time-consuming than it would have been with a developer.
The most time-consuming part was actually the period from purchasing the plot until realizing that there apparently was no suitable developer for us.
No matter how well-trained a salesperson (who of course calls themselves a consultant) was, none of them managed to “sell” us—in spite of our complete lack of knowledge about building—and these groups mostly reacted with arrogance and/or aggression. There was no longer any “friendly” atmosphere.
We wanted transparency and openness, but no promises or lies that would paint an unrealistic picture… and it is exactly this transparency and openness that, fortunately (looking back now), we could not find.
I can’t remember ever being lied to by so many people (agents, house sellers, developers, etc.) in such a short period as during our house planning phase.
There were times when we simply didn’t know what to believe and what not to.
The important thing is not to “give in” to these people and sign anything.
Our timeline was as follows:
June 2011: Found and bought a plot via “Immobilenscout”
(First untruths/lies about groundwater and building regulations related to the project—coming from the real estate agent)
We decided on solid construction and started first floor plan drafts ourselves.
July 2011 – November 2011: Searching for a developer (at model home exhibitions, new development areas, online, etc.)—without success.
December 2011: Everything reset to zero, including the floor plans, decision:
N O D E V E L O P E R
January 2012: Created a completely new floor plan.
February 2012: Looked for a building planner for permit submission.
March 2012: Submitted the building permit application—approval came after (!!!) 19 days (despite approval, still no contractor in sight).
Found a shell builder. This builder created a 1:50 scale plan for the contract phase (on their own initiative).
With this detailed plan, we requested quotes for shell plumbing, electrical, windows, and roofing.
April 2012: Received a quote from the earthworks contractor.
May 2012: Construction began.
May 2012 – End of July 2012: Shell construction including roof structure, roofing/plumbing work, and window installation (house is weather-tight).
August 2012: Nothing happened – vacation time.
September 2012 – Mid October 2012: Interior construction started (up to and including screed).
Mid October 2012 – Mid November 2012: Nothing happened – the house needed to “dry out.”
Mid November 2012 – Mid December 2012: Interior work resumed (drywall, painting, flooring, electrical, plumbing installations, interior doors, etc.).
December 21: Move-in.
May 20, 2013: Everything would be perfect if...
we finally had a garden.
For the past 3 months it has been impossible to find a landscaper, except for extremely overpriced quotes (price differences up to a factor of 16—no typo).
Starting next Thursday, our outdoor area will finally be laid out…..FINALLY!!!!
I don’t feel that our planning process was more intensive or time-consuming than it would have been with a developer.
The most time-consuming part was actually the period from purchasing the plot until realizing that there apparently was no suitable developer for us.
No matter how well-trained a salesperson (who of course calls themselves a consultant) was, none of them managed to “sell” us—in spite of our complete lack of knowledge about building—and these groups mostly reacted with arrogance and/or aggression. There was no longer any “friendly” atmosphere.
We wanted transparency and openness, but no promises or lies that would paint an unrealistic picture… and it is exactly this transparency and openness that, fortunately (looking back now), we could not find.
I can’t remember ever being lied to by so many people (agents, house sellers, developers, etc.) in such a short period as during our house planning phase.
There were times when we simply didn’t know what to believe and what not to.
The important thing is not to “give in” to these people and sign anything.
Our timeline was as follows:
June 2011: Found and bought a plot via “Immobilenscout”
(First untruths/lies about groundwater and building regulations related to the project—coming from the real estate agent)
We decided on solid construction and started first floor plan drafts ourselves.
July 2011 – November 2011: Searching for a developer (at model home exhibitions, new development areas, online, etc.)—without success.
December 2011: Everything reset to zero, including the floor plans, decision:
N O D E V E L O P E R
January 2012: Created a completely new floor plan.
February 2012: Looked for a building planner for permit submission.
March 2012: Submitted the building permit application—approval came after (!!!) 19 days (despite approval, still no contractor in sight).
Found a shell builder. This builder created a 1:50 scale plan for the contract phase (on their own initiative).
With this detailed plan, we requested quotes for shell plumbing, electrical, windows, and roofing.
April 2012: Received a quote from the earthworks contractor.
May 2012: Construction began.
May 2012 – End of July 2012: Shell construction including roof structure, roofing/plumbing work, and window installation (house is weather-tight).
August 2012: Nothing happened – vacation time.
September 2012 – Mid October 2012: Interior construction started (up to and including screed).
Mid October 2012 – Mid November 2012: Nothing happened – the house needed to “dry out.”
Mid November 2012 – Mid December 2012: Interior work resumed (drywall, painting, flooring, electrical, plumbing installations, interior doors, etc.).
December 21: Move-in.
May 20, 2013: Everything would be perfect if...
we finally had a garden.
For the past 3 months it has been impossible to find a landscaper, except for extremely overpriced quotes (price differences up to a factor of 16—no typo).
Starting next Thursday, our outdoor area will finally be laid out…..FINALLY!!!!
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