Hello everyone,
some of you might know that I’m new here and slowly getting familiar with the relevant topics. As a very tech-savvy person, I am particularly interested in automation.
I’m surprised that the current trend in advice for new builds leans towards connecting everything via bus cables. This involves a huge amount of planning with a very high likelihood of retrofitting over the next 30 years. A wireless solution or a powerline communication system would technically be completely feasible, requires much less planning, and involves hardly any extra work for the electrician. Every component to be controlled is powered anyway. Therefore, each component could be addressed via the regular power cable. And if someone wants to save a bit during construction, they could simply upgrade certain components like lighting later on and operate them manually until then. There are no additional costs for a non-smart installation of a light fixture.
Or is this already the case, and I have misunderstood the recommendations for implementing bus systems like KNX and others?
Best regards,
Matthias
some of you might know that I’m new here and slowly getting familiar with the relevant topics. As a very tech-savvy person, I am particularly interested in automation.
I’m surprised that the current trend in advice for new builds leans towards connecting everything via bus cables. This involves a huge amount of planning with a very high likelihood of retrofitting over the next 30 years. A wireless solution or a powerline communication system would technically be completely feasible, requires much less planning, and involves hardly any extra work for the electrician. Every component to be controlled is powered anyway. Therefore, each component could be addressed via the regular power cable. And if someone wants to save a bit during construction, they could simply upgrade certain components like lighting later on and operate them manually until then. There are no additional costs for a non-smart installation of a light fixture.
Or is this already the case, and I have misunderstood the recommendations for implementing bus systems like KNX and others?
Best regards,
Matthias
K
knalltüte9 May 2020 21:58PowerLine modulates a frequency onto electrical wiring (solid copper conductors).
The entire house is subjected to constant "radio frequency exposure"!
PowerLine is and remains a temporary solution, not only in IT but in general.
@rick2018 was very accurate in saying: This and other makeshift solutions have no place in new construction! Absolutely none!
Any disturbance in the electrical network (cheap device or faulty equipment) causes interference in the PowerLine network. Not to mention the safety concerns.
You might notice: I quite literally "hate" PowerLine.
There is nothing more unreliable (except maybe poorly implemented Wi-Fi).
As mentioned before, it should only be used to complement the LAN (wired) infrastructure, never as a replacement. Even though this is sometimes promoted by larger companies.
The entire house is subjected to constant "radio frequency exposure"!
PowerLine is and remains a temporary solution, not only in IT but in general.
@rick2018 was very accurate in saying: This and other makeshift solutions have no place in new construction! Absolutely none!
Any disturbance in the electrical network (cheap device or faulty equipment) causes interference in the PowerLine network. Not to mention the safety concerns.
You might notice: I quite literally "hate" PowerLine.
There is nothing more unreliable (except maybe poorly implemented Wi-Fi).
As mentioned before, it should only be used to complement the LAN (wired) infrastructure, never as a replacement. Even though this is sometimes promoted by larger companies.
bauenmk202010 May 2020 10:32Mycraft schrieb:
No, it practically costs nothing in new construction because it is installed together with the NYM cable. It’s maybe 100–200 euros (about 110–220 USD) more per typical single-family house. It depends on who carries this out for the new construction. If standard electrical work has been agreed upon with the general contractor, this often doesn’t work because planning is not done and there is no time to implement the planning properly.
By the way: "saving" on switch batteries is not smart; it simply reduces the physical number of switches/buttons.
bauenmk2020 schrieb:
It depends on who is responsible for implementing this in the new build. If standard electrical work with the general contractor has been agreed upon, such things often don’t work because planning is not done and there isn’t enough time to carry out the planning. The statement referred to the fact that installing bus cables basically costs nothing if you have decided on it, since the NYM cables need to be laid anyway.
bauenmk2020 schrieb:
By the way: “saving” on wall switch stations is not smart, it simply reduces the physical number of switches/buttons. A switch station is generally “not smart” because a control point is created for each function and device. After all, you need some way to operate it. This way of thinking is outdated.
In contrast, a room controller like those used with KNX makes a huge difference and is not just a simple reduction of physical control points.
On the contrary, you often get many more buttons accommodated in the same room. At the same time, they remain very easy to use. In my opinion, the standard 55mm (2.2 inches) grid switches are far too large for simple tasks anyway.
A
AleXSR70010 May 2020 11:56By Powerline, I simply meant using the electrical wiring (regardless of the purpose).
And yes and no, Wi-Fi does replace LAN to some extent. Personally, I try to avoid LAN as much as possible.
Off the top of my head, I would actually set up a central point for the modem, then use LAN only to connect to access points, and supply all devices via Wi-Fi. I’m talking about IT devices here, not home automation. So PCs, laptops, tablets, phones, FireTV, etc. All connected via WLAN (Wi-Fi).
Okay, the NAS would still be located near the modem and connected via LAN. But apart from that...
But okay, technically it seems they didn’t manage to use the electrical network cleanly. A star topology is indeed the “cleanest” in terms of speed and peer-to-peer communication, but also the most complex to implement hardware-wise.
I don’t mean that every meter of cable is that expensive. But imagine expanding the attic afterwards, for example. Then you have to run cables through the entire building to supply the attic. With a powerline network, that wouldn’t have been necessary. Nor with wireless.
So ideally, you should plan a lot of cable routes very early on and know exactly where each device will go. And where each piece of furniture will be. And then include an empty conduit in every room, just to be safe? The planning really becomes quite complex.
And yes and no, Wi-Fi does replace LAN to some extent. Personally, I try to avoid LAN as much as possible.
Off the top of my head, I would actually set up a central point for the modem, then use LAN only to connect to access points, and supply all devices via Wi-Fi. I’m talking about IT devices here, not home automation. So PCs, laptops, tablets, phones, FireTV, etc. All connected via WLAN (Wi-Fi).
Okay, the NAS would still be located near the modem and connected via LAN. But apart from that...
But okay, technically it seems they didn’t manage to use the electrical network cleanly. A star topology is indeed the “cleanest” in terms of speed and peer-to-peer communication, but also the most complex to implement hardware-wise.
I don’t mean that every meter of cable is that expensive. But imagine expanding the attic afterwards, for example. Then you have to run cables through the entire building to supply the attic. With a powerline network, that wouldn’t have been necessary. Nor with wireless.
So ideally, you should plan a lot of cable routes very early on and know exactly where each device will go. And where each piece of furniture will be. And then include an empty conduit in every room, just to be safe? The planning really becomes quite complex.
K
knalltüte10 May 2020 13:08AleXSR700 schrieb:
By Powerline, I simply meant using the electric wiring (regardless of the purpose).
And yes and no, Wi-Fi does replace LAN to some extent. Personally, I try to avoid LAN as much as possible.
Spontaneously, I would actually set up a central location for the modem, then connect LAN only to the access points from there, and supply all devices via Wi-Fi. I’m talking IT here, not home automation. So PCs, laptops, tablets, phones, FireTV, etc., all over wireless (Wi-Fi).
Okay, the NAS would also be located near the modem and connected via LAN. But otherwise...
... Yes, you are right that the effort to install bus cables (CAT7, etc.) once is (slightly) higher.
However, this amount of LAN cabling can hardly ever be retrofitted—at least not without the cost and effort comparable to the shell construction phase.
Well, what I see as a result in many single-family houses built within the last 15 years is that when owners want to add a NAS, a TV (as a streaming client over LAN), or even just an additional Wi-Fi access point afterwards,
they have planned and installed only 2 to 7 (simplex) LAN cables for the entire house.
The house stands for... 50? 100? years? No idea, but definitely too long to make such mistakes.
The effective net transfer rate of LAN is actually many times higher than Wi-Fi!
(even if you plan expensive Wi-Fi access points every 3 meters), which in turn costs more than LAN that you then need anyway to connect those access points.
Sorry, from more than 30 years of IT experience, I’m telling you: install as many LAN cables as you can, and plan a lot of Wi-Fi as well. You will definitely miss something later on anyway.
The cost savings (fantasies) of some decision-makers who plan and implement a building network (IT) exclusively via Wi-Fi will be ruined later by complicated retrofitting of cables.
And anyone who has planned an unfinished attic in a new build should of course run LAN cables there alongside the pipes for heating and wastewater—or not?
@AleXSR700 I have to disagree with you here.
Wi-Fi cannot replace wired LAN. A user here in the forum summarized it well.
Even if you consider yourself tech-savvy, you probably don’t have an in-depth understanding of this topic.
With Wi-Fi on the 5 GHz band, even under the best conditions and with only one user (client), you won’t get anywhere near the speed of a wired LAN. Let’s not even talk about 10 Gbps and beyond...
Usually, for example, in a living room, you have a cluster of clients. They all have to share the same connection.
Also, many access points can be problematic for the average user. You need to carefully manage frequencies and transmission power here.
In a new build, running LAN cables hardly adds any significant cost. Retrofitting later is complicated.
These are exactly the cases where residents end up using workaround solutions (repeaters, powerline adapters...) that can cut bandwidth by up to half.
If an electrician tells you that you only need Wi-Fi, please politely ask them to leave immediately...
Wi-Fi cannot replace wired LAN. A user here in the forum summarized it well.
Even if you consider yourself tech-savvy, you probably don’t have an in-depth understanding of this topic.
With Wi-Fi on the 5 GHz band, even under the best conditions and with only one user (client), you won’t get anywhere near the speed of a wired LAN. Let’s not even talk about 10 Gbps and beyond...
Usually, for example, in a living room, you have a cluster of clients. They all have to share the same connection.
Also, many access points can be problematic for the average user. You need to carefully manage frequencies and transmission power here.
In a new build, running LAN cables hardly adds any significant cost. Retrofitting later is complicated.
These are exactly the cases where residents end up using workaround solutions (repeaters, powerline adapters...) that can cut bandwidth by up to half.
If an electrician tells you that you only need Wi-Fi, please politely ask them to leave immediately...
Similar topics