Hello everyone,
some of you might know that I’m new here and slowly getting familiar with the relevant topics. As a very tech-savvy person, I am particularly interested in automation.
I’m surprised that the current trend in advice for new builds leans towards connecting everything via bus cables. This involves a huge amount of planning with a very high likelihood of retrofitting over the next 30 years. A wireless solution or a powerline communication system would technically be completely feasible, requires much less planning, and involves hardly any extra work for the electrician. Every component to be controlled is powered anyway. Therefore, each component could be addressed via the regular power cable. And if someone wants to save a bit during construction, they could simply upgrade certain components like lighting later on and operate them manually until then. There are no additional costs for a non-smart installation of a light fixture.
Or is this already the case, and I have misunderstood the recommendations for implementing bus systems like KNX and others?
Best regards,
Matthias
some of you might know that I’m new here and slowly getting familiar with the relevant topics. As a very tech-savvy person, I am particularly interested in automation.
I’m surprised that the current trend in advice for new builds leans towards connecting everything via bus cables. This involves a huge amount of planning with a very high likelihood of retrofitting over the next 30 years. A wireless solution or a powerline communication system would technically be completely feasible, requires much less planning, and involves hardly any extra work for the electrician. Every component to be controlled is powered anyway. Therefore, each component could be addressed via the regular power cable. And if someone wants to save a bit during construction, they could simply upgrade certain components like lighting later on and operate them manually until then. There are no additional costs for a non-smart installation of a light fixture.
Or is this already the case, and I have misunderstood the recommendations for implementing bus systems like KNX and others?
Best regards,
Matthias
11ant schrieb:
Enlighten us, why.
That's how it is. Wired connections and stationary users belong together – this applies both ways! Wireless makes sense wherever devices or users are mobile or nomadic, but a roller shutter motor is always fixed in the same box. "Wireless cables" are the most expensive option in every respect: complex to plan, difficult to control quality – actually only popular among admins who cannot handle LSA tools. I find "nomadic" hilarious xD
A
AleXSR70010 May 2020 19:51As you correctly pointed out, I’m talking about “mobile” devices here. The main reason for wanting to do everything as wireless as possible is that the layout of the rooms will most likely change quite quickly. I’ve never been able to position every table or piece of furniture perfectly right from the start in an apartment. Where will I want my desk later? Because that’s where the network socket needs to be. Which wall will the TV actually be on? Will one maybe end up in a child’s bedroom? If so, there needs to be a LAN socket in the right place there.
Or if a room is assigned a new purpose. For example, if a third child arrives unexpectedly. Oops, now the room needs different connections than it did before when it was just the broom closet.
Or you just use Wi-Fi. Then you only need power.
For me, it’s about flexibility over the years. And a star-shaped cable network is of course the least practical option for that. It only really makes sense for clear-cut things like roller shutters, door/window sensors, or similar. Even the control unit, I would find more practical over Wi-Fi. Simply because then you could maybe add an extra one somewhere else.
I think you understand what I mean. No matter how much you plan, something always ends up different. And then you’re stuck if the installed system is too inflexible. And to me, that includes breaking open walls and laying cables all through the house.
Or if a room is assigned a new purpose. For example, if a third child arrives unexpectedly. Oops, now the room needs different connections than it did before when it was just the broom closet.
Or you just use Wi-Fi. Then you only need power.
For me, it’s about flexibility over the years. And a star-shaped cable network is of course the least practical option for that. It only really makes sense for clear-cut things like roller shutters, door/window sensors, or similar. Even the control unit, I would find more practical over Wi-Fi. Simply because then you could maybe add an extra one somewhere else.
I think you understand what I mean. No matter how much you plan, something always ends up different. And then you’re stuck if the installed system is too inflexible. And to me, that includes breaking open walls and laying cables all through the house.
I completely understand where you’re coming from. I feel the same way—not about Wi-Fi (I’m indifferent there), but regarding the flexibility of the electrical installation over years and decades. That is exactly why I chose KNX. Especially because it is incredibly flexible when properly planned. You are just stuck in an IT mindset.
AleXSR700 schrieb:CAT yes. Bus no.
And a star topology cable network is naturally the most impractical for that.
AleXSR700 schrieb:That’s always possible with KNX. Anywhere you want. Why "the control panel"? Central and dedicated control units are outdated.
Even the control panel I would find more practical over Wi-Fi. Simply because then you might be able to add another one somewhere.
AleXSR700 schrieb:That’s exactly why bus systems were developed—to accommodate changes and modifications whenever needed.
No matter the planning, something always changes. And then you’re stuck if the installed system is too "inflexible."
AleXSR700 schrieb:But that doesn’t apply to new builds. You simply plan ahead thoroughly and carefully.
And that includes breaking open walls and laying cables throughout the house.
I also think this has little to do with IT in the classic sense.
One aspect is data exchange. Mobile devices need Wi-Fi, that’s clear. But stationary devices (servers, printers, computers, access points, consoles, video/audio receivers, set-top boxes, and so on) require an interference-free connection.
And honestly, a normal house is definitely planned with consideration of where a TV will be placed. Usually, a TV will move at most to the adjacent wall during the lifetime of a house. Possibly to the opposite wall as well.
But whatever, then I just run another cable there. It “costs” almost nothing but makes me extremely flexible.
Have you ever noticed the difference when streaming photos from a NAS to a mobile phone versus a wired (Gbit) connected device?
There is a huge difference. And data rates will only continue to increase in all respects.
Really high data rates via wireless at the consumer level only work reliably at 1–2 meters (3–6 feet) distance at most.
One aspect is data exchange. Mobile devices need Wi-Fi, that’s clear. But stationary devices (servers, printers, computers, access points, consoles, video/audio receivers, set-top boxes, and so on) require an interference-free connection.
And honestly, a normal house is definitely planned with consideration of where a TV will be placed. Usually, a TV will move at most to the adjacent wall during the lifetime of a house. Possibly to the opposite wall as well.
But whatever, then I just run another cable there. It “costs” almost nothing but makes me extremely flexible.
Have you ever noticed the difference when streaming photos from a NAS to a mobile phone versus a wired (Gbit) connected device?
There is a huge difference. And data rates will only continue to increase in all respects.
Really high data rates via wireless at the consumer level only work reliably at 1–2 meters (3–6 feet) distance at most.
Tarnari schrieb:
I find the term “nomadic” hilarious xD“Nomadic” means, for example, using a laptop at the dining table, then clearing it away for dinner, afterwards taking it onto your lap on the couch, and the next day, when the weather is nice, working on the terrace. Each time sitting for hours in the same place, just not while walking through the house – that’s the difference compared to “mobile.” Fixed in place for hours, thus consistently within the range of the same access point cell, but always only a cable length away from the next wall socket. With a tablet, the user’s movement frequency between breakfast bar, kitchen island, sewing room, armchair, etc. is quite different – that’s more “mobile.” There’s much more roaming involved, and the location might change even within a single session. If someone absolutely needs to call me even while I’m on the toilet, please at least don’t call via Skype, but use GSM – that has nothing to do with the Wi-Fi.Tarnari schrieb:
And data rates will generally continue to increase. Really high data rates on wireless at the consumer level only work at a maximum distance of 1-2m (3-6 feet).One should also be aware that Super High Definition Multimedia basically means "microwave." More data rate, higher frequency (= more waves that can be disrupted by interference) then means even more data rate is needed so the buffer doesn’t have to wait too long for retransmission of lost packets.Tarnari schrieb:
Usually, over the lifetime of a house, a TV will only move to the adjacent wall at most. Possibly the opposite wall.That’s why I always find it amusing when people try to tailor their house exactly to the current couch-TV setup, down to the centimeter.https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
The socket positions will be just as unsuitable for a change of use as the LAN ports....
TV suddenly on a different wall?
If you want to stay completely flexible, install a raised floor (like in server rooms). That way, you can adjust power and everything else at any time...
TV suddenly on a different wall?
If you want to stay completely flexible, install a raised floor (like in server rooms). That way, you can adjust power and everything else at any time...