Hello everyone,
I’ve been reading through various threads here for a few days now and have noticed that it always seems to come down to KNX in the end.
We currently live in a rental house where KNX is installed for the roller shutter control and the motion detectors for the outdoor lighting. There’s nothing smart about it, just networked. It could have been done with regular switches just as easily, but oh well.
As far as I know, the house and the system were built just before the turn of the millennium. In the last six months, 4 or even 5 actuators in the control cabinet had to be replaced. According to the electrician, it was an expensive experience for our landlord. That was also one of the reasons I was initially skeptical.
After reading a lot about it here in the forum, I would still like to give it a chance.
Long introduction, first the basic information:
1. We’ve just found our plot and are starting the planning phase with the architect. So I can’t provide floor plans yet. We did give him some wishes, but we’ll have to see what he comes up with. About 150m² (1,615 sq ft) of living space, 2 floors, no basement.
2. I would consider myself an experienced user of standard software, understand how an algorithm works, and can implement fairly complex rules with IFTTT. However, I can’t program. At most a bit of HTML, which probably won’t help me here.
3. We already use some smart devices. Hue bulbs, Osram smart plugs, for the sound system I chose MusicCast years ago instead of Sonos, entertainment electronics are controlled via Harmony Elite, and there’s an Alexa device as well. For example, my morning routine is set up through Alexa.
We’ve made the best out of the rental situation possible.
That’s also why my first thought was: Hey, just keep using Zigbee, it works...
There are certainly many use cases I haven’t thought of yet, but I do already have a few ideas in mind:
- Roller shutter control based on weather and time
- Alarm system control + visualization of open windows/doors, also on the smartphone when away
- Activating the alarm system when our two smartphones leave the Wi-Fi network
- Controlling the lawn robot and irrigation system based on soil conditions
- Visualization of photovoltaic output + battery storage status
- Video doorbell with door lock including remote unlocking via smartphone
- ...
As I said, we are still at the beginning and many ideas will come later.
For many of these approaches, there are standalone solutions, but naturally, they are difficult to integrate when new ideas come up.
Therefore, I have the following questions:
- Is there any alternative to KNX?
- Can costs be estimated in any way based on this information?
- Do you perhaps know a reliable provider in the Coburg area to talk to?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Best regards, Christian
I’ve been reading through various threads here for a few days now and have noticed that it always seems to come down to KNX in the end.
We currently live in a rental house where KNX is installed for the roller shutter control and the motion detectors for the outdoor lighting. There’s nothing smart about it, just networked. It could have been done with regular switches just as easily, but oh well.
As far as I know, the house and the system were built just before the turn of the millennium. In the last six months, 4 or even 5 actuators in the control cabinet had to be replaced. According to the electrician, it was an expensive experience for our landlord. That was also one of the reasons I was initially skeptical.
After reading a lot about it here in the forum, I would still like to give it a chance.
Long introduction, first the basic information:
1. We’ve just found our plot and are starting the planning phase with the architect. So I can’t provide floor plans yet. We did give him some wishes, but we’ll have to see what he comes up with. About 150m² (1,615 sq ft) of living space, 2 floors, no basement.
2. I would consider myself an experienced user of standard software, understand how an algorithm works, and can implement fairly complex rules with IFTTT. However, I can’t program. At most a bit of HTML, which probably won’t help me here.
3. We already use some smart devices. Hue bulbs, Osram smart plugs, for the sound system I chose MusicCast years ago instead of Sonos, entertainment electronics are controlled via Harmony Elite, and there’s an Alexa device as well. For example, my morning routine is set up through Alexa.
We’ve made the best out of the rental situation possible.
That’s also why my first thought was: Hey, just keep using Zigbee, it works...
There are certainly many use cases I haven’t thought of yet, but I do already have a few ideas in mind:
- Roller shutter control based on weather and time
- Alarm system control + visualization of open windows/doors, also on the smartphone when away
- Activating the alarm system when our two smartphones leave the Wi-Fi network
- Controlling the lawn robot and irrigation system based on soil conditions
- Visualization of photovoltaic output + battery storage status
- Video doorbell with door lock including remote unlocking via smartphone
- ...
As I said, we are still at the beginning and many ideas will come later.
For many of these approaches, there are standalone solutions, but naturally, they are difficult to integrate when new ideas come up.
Therefore, I have the following questions:
- Is there any alternative to KNX?
- Can costs be estimated in any way based on this information?
- Do you perhaps know a reliable provider in the Coburg area to talk to?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Best regards, Christian
Why go with KNX given the costs? There are alternatives, such as EnOcean, that are just as capable as KNX but cost only a fraction. I would estimate around 5000€ (about 5400 USD).
And yes, it is also a standard with many manufacturers and originates from industrial automation. Therefore, it is very reliable. If planned smartly, it hardly costs more than a conventional installation.
And yes, it is also a standard with many manufacturers and originates from industrial automation. Therefore, it is very reliable. If planned smartly, it hardly costs more than a conventional installation.
EnOcean is not comparable to KNX. At most, they can be combined, but that is not necessarily required. Philips Hue uses EnOcean technology in its wireless switches. There are many ways to achieve a goal. However, only KNX offers a standard and therefore open system. And in new construction, wiring is the common approach...
Enocean is also a standard. As far as I know, there is nothing KNX can do that Enocean cannot. Whether to use wired or wireless systems is more a matter of preference than a rule of nature. I would not want to go without my mobile phone, cordless phone, satellite system, or Wi-Fi even in a new build. This means that in everyday life, there is already a strong reliance on wireless technology rather than forced wiring.
It is not the wireless signals that fail, but the technology behind them. In such cases, it does not matter whether it is wired or wireless. The conditions for good reception must, of course, be taken into account, and in a reinforced concrete structure, I would naturally prefer to use wiring.
It is not the wireless signals that fail, but the technology behind them. In such cases, it does not matter whether it is wired or wireless. The conditions for good reception must, of course, be taken into account, and in a reinforced concrete structure, I would naturally prefer to use wiring.
And how many manufacturers actually support the EnOcean standard? If the EnOcean wireless gateway fails, how many alternative options from other manufacturers do you have? Depending on the design and distance, you will need repeaters.
If something in the wireless system breaks down, (a part of) the system stops working.
With KNX wiring, this is not a problem.
Depending on the scale, KNX can also be more cost-effective.
I am quite familiar with EnOcean technology. I never drop one of those wireless switches. The energy harvesting system is very sensitive to impacts. Whether it is truly industrial-grade is questionable.
If you are building with companies like Weberhaus or Viebrockhaus, you can use EnOcean since they offer it under their own brand and probably have some experience with it.
I wouldn’t give up Wi-Fi either, but I would never consider replacing my entire Ethernet network with it. Eventually, the frequencies become congested. Even the fastest available Wi-Fi today is not even half as fast as gigabit Ethernet. We’re not even talking about 10-gigabit. Wireless is suitable for retrofitting, lower bandwidth needs, and non-critical applications.
For new builds, therefore, wired connections are recommended.
However, there are also plenty of people for whom a central router like a Fritzbox in the middle of the house is sufficient. But those are not the target audience for home automation—at most for remote control, but not for smart automation.
If something in the wireless system breaks down, (a part of) the system stops working.
With KNX wiring, this is not a problem.
Depending on the scale, KNX can also be more cost-effective.
I am quite familiar with EnOcean technology. I never drop one of those wireless switches. The energy harvesting system is very sensitive to impacts. Whether it is truly industrial-grade is questionable.
If you are building with companies like Weberhaus or Viebrockhaus, you can use EnOcean since they offer it under their own brand and probably have some experience with it.
I wouldn’t give up Wi-Fi either, but I would never consider replacing my entire Ethernet network with it. Eventually, the frequencies become congested. Even the fastest available Wi-Fi today is not even half as fast as gigabit Ethernet. We’re not even talking about 10-gigabit. Wireless is suitable for retrofitting, lower bandwidth needs, and non-critical applications.
For new builds, therefore, wired connections are recommended.
However, there are also plenty of people for whom a central router like a Fritzbox in the middle of the house is sufficient. But those are not the target audience for home automation—at most for remote control, but not for smart automation.
There are probably about 50 manufacturers involved. Around 400-500 companies participate in the EnOcean Alliance, including well-known firms like IBM and Microsoft.
There are roughly 20 wireless controllers, although any NAS, PC, or Raspberry Pi can also serve as an affordable wireless controller. You don’t need €1000 (about $1100) worth of software for that.
If a mouse chews through the main distribution line, KNX is dead, but EnOcean continues to transmit. You can always come up with a scenario where one system fails but the other doesn’t. It’s also advisable to build an EnOcean home with redundancy so that a single component doesn’t bring everything to a halt. With EnOcean, you can also pair the transmitters directly with actuators, so even if the central controller crashes, all the “simple” functions like switches, dimmers, etc., will keep working—similar to KNX.
A dropped wireless switch might be fragile, but I also don’t know how many KNX components survive a fall intact before installation. Given costs of €80,000 (about $88,000), I’d try to avoid such damage. That’s not a common scenario, and hopefully, I only install a button every 20 years or so. Between that time, it shouldn’t fail.
As you already mentioned, Weberhaus and Viebrockhaus build with EnOcean and are definitely not known for cutting corners on quality. Weberhaus was recently awarded for its smart home concept and has been using EnOcean for 10 years now.
10 Gbit is a lot, but theoretically, Wi-Fi 6 can handle that as well. In practice, it’s less, of course, but think about where we were 5-10 years ago. Ethernet at over 10 Gbit is almost obsolete, while wireless still has room to improve. Speeds beyond 20 or 40 Gbit will require fiber optics. But should that be a deterrent? With Wi-Fi 6, you can transfer a 4K movie from A to B in just a few seconds. Isn’t that enough?
KNX is certainly top-notch and well thought out, but the extra cost really can’t be ignored. Not everyone wants to drive a Porsche. With €10,000 (about $11,000), you can implement everything you want with EnOcean; usually €5,000 (about $5,500) is enough, and KNX prices up to €80,000 (about $88,000) are simply ridiculous.
And EnOcean’s retrofitting options bring additional advantages. Who really knows at the start what they will want or need in daily life at home? Which sensors should be placed here or there? What sensors are available, and which are still in development? Who knows how habits will change over time? People get older, children come, and so on. With EnOcean, you can add sensors or additional switches later without even needing any tools.
There are roughly 20 wireless controllers, although any NAS, PC, or Raspberry Pi can also serve as an affordable wireless controller. You don’t need €1000 (about $1100) worth of software for that.
If a mouse chews through the main distribution line, KNX is dead, but EnOcean continues to transmit. You can always come up with a scenario where one system fails but the other doesn’t. It’s also advisable to build an EnOcean home with redundancy so that a single component doesn’t bring everything to a halt. With EnOcean, you can also pair the transmitters directly with actuators, so even if the central controller crashes, all the “simple” functions like switches, dimmers, etc., will keep working—similar to KNX.
A dropped wireless switch might be fragile, but I also don’t know how many KNX components survive a fall intact before installation. Given costs of €80,000 (about $88,000), I’d try to avoid such damage. That’s not a common scenario, and hopefully, I only install a button every 20 years or so. Between that time, it shouldn’t fail.
As you already mentioned, Weberhaus and Viebrockhaus build with EnOcean and are definitely not known for cutting corners on quality. Weberhaus was recently awarded for its smart home concept and has been using EnOcean for 10 years now.
10 Gbit is a lot, but theoretically, Wi-Fi 6 can handle that as well. In practice, it’s less, of course, but think about where we were 5-10 years ago. Ethernet at over 10 Gbit is almost obsolete, while wireless still has room to improve. Speeds beyond 20 or 40 Gbit will require fiber optics. But should that be a deterrent? With Wi-Fi 6, you can transfer a 4K movie from A to B in just a few seconds. Isn’t that enough?
KNX is certainly top-notch and well thought out, but the extra cost really can’t be ignored. Not everyone wants to drive a Porsche. With €10,000 (about $11,000), you can implement everything you want with EnOcean; usually €5,000 (about $5,500) is enough, and KNX prices up to €80,000 (about $88,000) are simply ridiculous.
And EnOcean’s retrofitting options bring additional advantages. Who really knows at the start what they will want or need in daily life at home? Which sensors should be placed here or there? What sensors are available, and which are still in development? Who knows how habits will change over time? People get older, children come, and so on. With EnOcean, you can add sensors or additional switches later without even needing any tools.
