J
Jean_Belgo851 Jun 2016 17:00Hello Forum,
my name is Jean, and you are my last hope. We bought a house last month that is equipped with a BARTL air-to-water heat pump. Even during the viewings, the unit seemed quite loud to us. However, the seller assured us that it is only a bit noisier during the defrost cycle and that normal operation is not a problem. We have now been living here for one month and had time to take a closer look at the heat pump. I want to briefly outline the situation.
The house was built in 2004.
Bartl air heat pump, model year 2004, with 11.9 kW (approx. 16 hp)
On the roof, we have a solar thermal system for hot water
Underfloor heating covering 124 sqm (approx. 1334 sqft)
Wooden house
In our opinion, the heat pump is very loud and also cycles on and off frequently during the day in the indoor unit. I am only talking about the indoor unit here. The outdoor unit is working as expected and is not audible. We also noticed that a seal on the solar thermal piping is leaking, and the system pressure is only 1 bar (14.5 psi). I was told this would be resolved after cleaning and refilling (500–600 Euros) .
I strongly suspect that the controller (Gamme223b) of the indoor heat pump is faulty because our underfloor heating does not get properly warm, and if it does, not evenly across the entire floor. The hot water tank is full, and we do have water for showering and bathing.
After one or two phone calls with the manufacturer, I became even more uncertain. The bivalence thermometer sometimes shows “PFA,” which according to online sources means the maximum temperature has been exceeded. Neither the previous owner nor the technician knew what this meant.
I have now had three different heating technicians come, and each told me something different.
Technician 1 said that the previous owners had an electricity bill of 10,000 Euros per year. I first thought he meant 10,000 kWh, but he repeated the figure in Euros. Technician 2 immediately said the heating system should be removed and replaced with an air-to-ground brine heat pump. Technician 3 suggested cleaning up the heating system, which would cost 8,000–10,000 Euros.
I am totally confused and don’t really know the best way to approach this. The manufacturer told me during the last phone call that someone could come on site and provide me with a cost estimate for a new compressor and/or control panel in advance, and they would decide on the spot what needs to be done.
Unfortunately, with BARTL, the service call fee alone is 400–500 Euros, and I don’t want to just invite someone out on a guess. I wonder who I should ask to find out what’s wrong with the unit. Is it the actuators, the controller, or something else? I am willing to pay for an expert assessment or mediation. I just want good advice and feel a bit taken advantage of, as everyone seems eager to sell me their product immediately.
Thank you in advance for any tips.
Best regards, Jean
my name is Jean, and you are my last hope. We bought a house last month that is equipped with a BARTL air-to-water heat pump. Even during the viewings, the unit seemed quite loud to us. However, the seller assured us that it is only a bit noisier during the defrost cycle and that normal operation is not a problem. We have now been living here for one month and had time to take a closer look at the heat pump. I want to briefly outline the situation.
The house was built in 2004.
Bartl air heat pump, model year 2004, with 11.9 kW (approx. 16 hp)
On the roof, we have a solar thermal system for hot water
Underfloor heating covering 124 sqm (approx. 1334 sqft)
Wooden house
In our opinion, the heat pump is very loud and also cycles on and off frequently during the day in the indoor unit. I am only talking about the indoor unit here. The outdoor unit is working as expected and is not audible. We also noticed that a seal on the solar thermal piping is leaking, and the system pressure is only 1 bar (14.5 psi). I was told this would be resolved after cleaning and refilling (500–600 Euros) .
I strongly suspect that the controller (Gamme223b) of the indoor heat pump is faulty because our underfloor heating does not get properly warm, and if it does, not evenly across the entire floor. The hot water tank is full, and we do have water for showering and bathing.
After one or two phone calls with the manufacturer, I became even more uncertain. The bivalence thermometer sometimes shows “PFA,” which according to online sources means the maximum temperature has been exceeded. Neither the previous owner nor the technician knew what this meant.
I have now had three different heating technicians come, and each told me something different.
Technician 1 said that the previous owners had an electricity bill of 10,000 Euros per year. I first thought he meant 10,000 kWh, but he repeated the figure in Euros. Technician 2 immediately said the heating system should be removed and replaced with an air-to-ground brine heat pump. Technician 3 suggested cleaning up the heating system, which would cost 8,000–10,000 Euros.
I am totally confused and don’t really know the best way to approach this. The manufacturer told me during the last phone call that someone could come on site and provide me with a cost estimate for a new compressor and/or control panel in advance, and they would decide on the spot what needs to be done.
Unfortunately, with BARTL, the service call fee alone is 400–500 Euros, and I don’t want to just invite someone out on a guess. I wonder who I should ask to find out what’s wrong with the unit. Is it the actuators, the controller, or something else? I am willing to pay for an expert assessment or mediation. I just want good advice and feel a bit taken advantage of, as everyone seems eager to sell me their product immediately.
Thank you in advance for any tips.
Best regards, Jean
Why is the heating running in this weather? During the entire month of May, it only ran for maybe 3-5 days at night.
Large storage tanks and air-to-water heat pumps are not ideal because the air-to-water heat pump tries to keep it warm.
Is it warm inside the house? What does the heating curve say? Has the system been hydraulically balanced?
Please head over to the pink forum.
Large storage tanks and air-to-water heat pumps are not ideal because the air-to-water heat pump tries to keep it warm.
Is it warm inside the house? What does the heating curve say? Has the system been hydraulically balanced?
Please head over to the pink forum.
J
Jean_Belgo851 Jun 2016 17:28BeHaElja. I don’t know the heating curve, and it was already set. Yes, it was already at 3-4 today. No, it’s not warm here. The thermostatic valves in the rooms are set to 22-24 degrees Celsius (72-75°F), but the room temperature is 16°C (61°F).
Can you also tell me how to get to the pink section?
Can you also tell me how to get to the pink section?
Search for heiztechnikdialog...
Something is definitely wrong here... how can you have 16°C (61°F)? Is the air conditioning running, or are your thermometers broken?
If it weren’t 16°C (61°F), I would say you should first set the shut-off temperature to 10°C (50°F) outdoor temperature, but like this?!
Something is definitely wrong here... how can you have 16°C (61°F)? Is the air conditioning running, or are your thermometers broken?
If it weren’t 16°C (61°F), I would say you should first set the shut-off temperature to 10°C (50°F) outdoor temperature, but like this?!
Jean_Belgo85 schrieb:
Technician 1 told us that the previous owners had an electricity bill of 10,000 € per year. At first, I thought he meant 10,000 kW, but he repeated the amount in euros. Technician 2 immediately said that the heating system should be removed and replaced with an air-to-ground brine heat pump. Technician 3 said that the heating system should be cleaned up, which would cost 8,000–10,000€.Hi,
wow. 10,000 euros would correspond to about 20,000–30,000 kWh electricity cost per year for a house of this size from this construction year: Simply unbearable. This means the device has a coefficient of performance (annual performance factor) of MINUS (!) ??? (meaning: you might as well just use electric fans from a hardware store for heating). With that amount of energy, I can heat a similar-sized place for six years including hot water WITH GAS, without a heat pump.
I can’t imagine that an air-to-water heat pump from 2004 has reached the end of its lifespan. Well – sometimes you do see some strange things…
The solar thermal system pipework needs to be sealed. But this only indirectly relates to the heat pump – the solar thermal system feeds into the hot water tank. Cleaning and refilling won’t fix a leak. Instead, the leak has to be located and sealed, then refilled. Why that process should cost 600€ is beyond me. I know the procedure, it’s quite straightforward… Forget about the solar thermal system for now, it’s not going to make a big difference. Focus first on the indoor section of the heat pump.
From your description, there is a mechanical noise.
This device contains a compressor and several pumps.
The pumps should rarely run – it’s 18°C (64°F) and the location isn’t far from Aachen, so… if the system runs, it’s either producing hot water or the heating curve is poorly set. That can be adjusted.
In my opinion, the mechanical noise likely comes from the compressor. Possible causes: refrigerant circuit leak, compressor overheating/leak, no or low refrigerant, bearing damage. Of course, you can have multiple issues simultaneously, meaning one of the pumps could also be broken, plus control electronics problems, air in the heating circuit, no hydraulic balancing…
Your statements clearly indicate the unit is definitely faulty.
But my remote diagnosis: this is definitely repairable.
In your case, I would really dare to have the manufacturer come out, even if the service call is expensive. Worst case: the device is completely destroyed against expectations – then you’ve lost another 500€. Okay. But as I said, I don’t think that’s likely.
Compressor, refrigerant, maintenance, new seals, electronics check, adjustment, and other work I estimate roughly at 2,000–3,500€ in total… Considering the construction year, these costs are to be expected and almost overdue… but cheaper than ripping out the device and installing a new one without proper inspection and diagnosis (which is missing here, your contractors all seem cash-driven but uninterested in real work and expertise). Starting at repair costs of 4,000€, I would begin calculating a business case whether replacement might be worthwhile, based on detailed knowledge of the damage and costs.
Best regards,
Thorsten
PS: In your place, I wouldn’t do any more research on the forum.
What you’re describing is so extreme in terms of the values that anyone knowledgeable will tell you something is completely wrong.
Unfortunately, the error message you mentioned does not specify WHERE or AT WHICH POINT the temperature(s) are too high. I stick to what I said: mechanical defects and leaks (these can also be in the outdoor unit...). Maybe it was installed poorly, and this error has been there basically from the start...
My advice remains clear: work closely with the manufacturer to get to the bottom of this. For example, a refrigerant line between the indoor and outdoor unit could be defective. You are replacing both units with a new system, but not the lines. Your problem will remain... in a year you’ll be back to square one. You first need to identify the cause of the malfunction before you can take effective action.
For a house of your size and build year, I estimate the annual electricity consumption for hot water using an air-to-water heat pump to be around 3,000 kWh or less. Given the current temperatures, the system only produces hot water, nothing else.
Best regards
Thorsten
What you’re describing is so extreme in terms of the values that anyone knowledgeable will tell you something is completely wrong.
Unfortunately, the error message you mentioned does not specify WHERE or AT WHICH POINT the temperature(s) are too high. I stick to what I said: mechanical defects and leaks (these can also be in the outdoor unit...). Maybe it was installed poorly, and this error has been there basically from the start...
My advice remains clear: work closely with the manufacturer to get to the bottom of this. For example, a refrigerant line between the indoor and outdoor unit could be defective. You are replacing both units with a new system, but not the lines. Your problem will remain... in a year you’ll be back to square one. You first need to identify the cause of the malfunction before you can take effective action.
For a house of your size and build year, I estimate the annual electricity consumption for hot water using an air-to-water heat pump to be around 3,000 kWh or less. Given the current temperatures, the system only produces hot water, nothing else.
Best regards
Thorsten
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