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willWohnen3 Jul 2015 19:42Hello,
maybe someone here knows:
You can lay paving stones on a gravel bed with sand in between. Sometimes I see areas in the city paved with square granite cobblestones, but there the joints are closed and solid – I assume with cement.
Is it possible to do the same in your own garden? Is the same base enough, meaning compacted gravel, or do you need a concrete foundation for that?
Good luck
willWohnen
maybe someone here knows:
You can lay paving stones on a gravel bed with sand in between. Sometimes I see areas in the city paved with square granite cobblestones, but there the joints are closed and solid – I assume with cement.
Is it possible to do the same in your own garden? Is the same base enough, meaning compacted gravel, or do you need a concrete foundation for that?
Good luck
willWohnen
It is important to distinguish between a bound and an unbound layer.
The traditional structure (unbound) consists of a gravel base course and sand (in residential settings, usually only sand, which later forms natural tire tracks). The modern structure (bound), which typically occurs only in commercial areas (public squares, pedestrian zones, etc.), is based on a firm connection between the subbase and the paving, for example, through an asphalt base course.
For a rigid joint, there are either permeable options (usually quartz sand-based with synthetic resin) or impermeable options (cement-based). Naturally, the subbase must correspond accordingly; if the paving is set in concrete, a permeable joint cannot be used.
The first question is: what type of paving do you want, and what are your requirements? Is it purely a pedestrian area with light loads (for example, a lawn mower tractor)? Should water be able to drain through the joints or not?
Suppliers such as GFTK offer products for rigid joints. In residential applications, for example a terrace or pathway, there is a permeable joint product called VDW 840+, which comes in buckets and can be slurry-applied... I have used it myself... it works very well...
Important with a rigid joint: if the pavement moves (due to insufficient edge restraints or a settling subbase), the joint will crack and crumble, allowing weeds to take root. These repairs are difficult because the damaged joint material must be completely removed and new material does not bond well with the old. The same applies when you need to temporarily lift the paving at one spot (e.g., to access a pipe underneath).
Personally, I would use a gravel base course, fine crushed stone, and lay the paving into that, then slurry with VDW840...
The traditional structure (unbound) consists of a gravel base course and sand (in residential settings, usually only sand, which later forms natural tire tracks). The modern structure (bound), which typically occurs only in commercial areas (public squares, pedestrian zones, etc.), is based on a firm connection between the subbase and the paving, for example, through an asphalt base course.
For a rigid joint, there are either permeable options (usually quartz sand-based with synthetic resin) or impermeable options (cement-based). Naturally, the subbase must correspond accordingly; if the paving is set in concrete, a permeable joint cannot be used.
The first question is: what type of paving do you want, and what are your requirements? Is it purely a pedestrian area with light loads (for example, a lawn mower tractor)? Should water be able to drain through the joints or not?
Suppliers such as GFTK offer products for rigid joints. In residential applications, for example a terrace or pathway, there is a permeable joint product called VDW 840+, which comes in buckets and can be slurry-applied... I have used it myself... it works very well...
Important with a rigid joint: if the pavement moves (due to insufficient edge restraints or a settling subbase), the joint will crack and crumble, allowing weeds to take root. These repairs are difficult because the damaged joint material must be completely removed and new material does not bond well with the old. The same applies when you need to temporarily lift the paving at one spot (e.g., to access a pipe underneath).
Personally, I would use a gravel base course, fine crushed stone, and lay the paving into that, then slurry with VDW840...
Do you want the closed joints to prevent weeds, or is there also an aesthetic reason for you? If it is only to stop weeds, place a plastic geotextile fabric under the gravel and sand. It should allow water to pass through. This way, weeds stand no chance. I have done it like this at my place and at my parents’ house, where it has been in place for 10 years now and nothing has come through...
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willWohnen8 Jul 2015 16:38Hello,
thanks for the replies. My thoughts are still a bit undeveloped; in other words, I’m exploring different options.
Background: The front garden should be as low-maintenance as possible, and the paths should ideally stay free of weeds. Since the driveway will be paved with herringbone-pattern concrete rectangular pavers for durability, I would like the paths in the front garden to be made from the same pavers for uniformity.
The landscaper is a strong believer in Feng Shui, a green lifestyle, and the philosophy of using pure natural materials above all else. He is nice, and I understand him to some extent, but I also have to consider costs and maintenance. He would prefer to do everything with curved shapes in wood and natural stone, but we simply cannot afford that. (800 sq m (8,600 sq ft) plot)
These roughly hewn granite cobblestones he showed me—I imagine a surface paved with those would be difficult to clear with a snow shovel in winter. (?) And if my sister visits in high heels, she’d probably have trouble walking on them as well.
I would rather go with a smooth, edged concrete paver.
At first, I thought about using wood or natural stone in the backyard in front of the living room. But since the kitchen is right there as well, I want a durable surface in front of it (e.g., I often water herbs in pots and sometimes water overflows). Around the corner is the vegetable garden, which the landscaper wants to pave with huge natural stone circles. However, I don’t want to invest a lot of money in premium garden paths. For the first few years, I’ll just lay down some concrete slabs to step on. If they sink after three years without proper base preparation, I’ll have to deal with it then. (Although according to the soil survey, our soil has very good load-bearing capacity.)
For this reason, I’m thinking about using plain concrete pavers throughout the entire garden (terraces, paths), as the material is affordable, durable, and easily replaceable. Perhaps it is more important visually that everything matches, rather than having a small area of "better" material here and there. (?)
Some paths or terraces will include circular shapes, possibly made of granite if it pairs well. In these circular paver patterns, the joints tend to be wider.
I was also thinking that if the terrace is made of rectangular pavers and/or granite circles, there will be many more joints than with large natural stone slabs, so the surface should at least be easy to clean and maintain.
And with "loose" joints filled with sand, don’t you end up sweeping out some of the sand when you clean the area?
Back to the main topic: joints. @bodo Thanks, that’s a really helpful tip about the membrane if it has lasted 10 years with you! I will keep that in mind for the front garden, unless we decide on a fixed joint anyway.
@Illo77 Thanks for your detailed comments. So fixed joints have downsides too. I do expect some settling in several areas of the property over the first few years. Is VDW 840+ a fixed joint, or is it elastic? Could I start with sand joints for the terraces and later upgrade them without much effort using that product?
I’m open to more experiences and tips regarding garden paths/terrace planning and materials.
Good luck
willWohnen
thanks for the replies. My thoughts are still a bit undeveloped; in other words, I’m exploring different options.
Background: The front garden should be as low-maintenance as possible, and the paths should ideally stay free of weeds. Since the driveway will be paved with herringbone-pattern concrete rectangular pavers for durability, I would like the paths in the front garden to be made from the same pavers for uniformity.
The landscaper is a strong believer in Feng Shui, a green lifestyle, and the philosophy of using pure natural materials above all else. He is nice, and I understand him to some extent, but I also have to consider costs and maintenance. He would prefer to do everything with curved shapes in wood and natural stone, but we simply cannot afford that. (800 sq m (8,600 sq ft) plot)
These roughly hewn granite cobblestones he showed me—I imagine a surface paved with those would be difficult to clear with a snow shovel in winter. (?) And if my sister visits in high heels, she’d probably have trouble walking on them as well.
I would rather go with a smooth, edged concrete paver.
At first, I thought about using wood or natural stone in the backyard in front of the living room. But since the kitchen is right there as well, I want a durable surface in front of it (e.g., I often water herbs in pots and sometimes water overflows). Around the corner is the vegetable garden, which the landscaper wants to pave with huge natural stone circles. However, I don’t want to invest a lot of money in premium garden paths. For the first few years, I’ll just lay down some concrete slabs to step on. If they sink after three years without proper base preparation, I’ll have to deal with it then. (Although according to the soil survey, our soil has very good load-bearing capacity.)
For this reason, I’m thinking about using plain concrete pavers throughout the entire garden (terraces, paths), as the material is affordable, durable, and easily replaceable. Perhaps it is more important visually that everything matches, rather than having a small area of "better" material here and there. (?)
Some paths or terraces will include circular shapes, possibly made of granite if it pairs well. In these circular paver patterns, the joints tend to be wider.
I was also thinking that if the terrace is made of rectangular pavers and/or granite circles, there will be many more joints than with large natural stone slabs, so the surface should at least be easy to clean and maintain.
And with "loose" joints filled with sand, don’t you end up sweeping out some of the sand when you clean the area?
Back to the main topic: joints. @bodo Thanks, that’s a really helpful tip about the membrane if it has lasted 10 years with you! I will keep that in mind for the front garden, unless we decide on a fixed joint anyway.
@Illo77 Thanks for your detailed comments. So fixed joints have downsides too. I do expect some settling in several areas of the property over the first few years. Is VDW 840+ a fixed joint, or is it elastic? Could I start with sand joints for the terraces and later upgrade them without much effort using that product?
I’m open to more experiences and tips regarding garden paths/terrace planning and materials.
Good luck
willWohnen
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willWohnen8 Jul 2015 18:08@ypg Hello,
I thought these paths are usually sloped slightly to the side anyway? There’s still soil everywhere, so I’m not paving all the way to the property boundary. The front yard mostly still consists of planting beds.
I can’t imagine that much water actually soaks into the joints. It’s more likely that the water runs off the surface and infiltrates elsewhere, right? Although on our very heavy clay soil, infiltration hardly happens (at least not quickly), which is why infiltration of the roof drainage is not mandatory here and instead it drains into the inspection chamber.
answered by willWohnen
I thought these paths are usually sloped slightly to the side anyway? There’s still soil everywhere, so I’m not paving all the way to the property boundary. The front yard mostly still consists of planting beds.
I can’t imagine that much water actually soaks into the joints. It’s more likely that the water runs off the surface and infiltrates elsewhere, right? Although on our very heavy clay soil, infiltration hardly happens (at least not quickly), which is why infiltration of the roof drainage is not mandatory here and instead it drains into the inspection chamber.
answered by willWohnen
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