ᐅ Single-family house new construction in Lower Saxony – architect’s fee amount?
Created on: 24 Jan 2019 16:34
B
Bau_Bambi
Hello everyone,
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
M
Mottenhausen9 Feb 2019 23:54I think we are still talking past each other. But roughly speaking, for us:
Land including additional purchase costs: 100,000,
160 sqm (1,722 sq ft) KfW55 house turnkey: 300,000,
Exterior/garage + additional construction costs + upgrades + some interior fittings another 100,000
= 0.5 million total project volume.
Land including additional purchase costs: 100,000,
160 sqm (1,722 sq ft) KfW55 house turnkey: 300,000,
Exterior/garage + additional construction costs + upgrades + some interior fittings another 100,000
= 0.5 million total project volume.
Mottenhausen schrieb:
160 sqm (1,722 sq ft) turnkey KfW55 house 300K 150 sqm (1,615 sq ft) with stepped floor, meeting Energy Saving Ordinance standard (gas condensing boiler, controlled residential ventilation) 230K current catalog price with our general contractor. If you don’t want white windows, the standard door, or manual shutters, you upgrade. For KfW 40+ you have to add insulation anyway and photovoltaic etc. Villeroy & Boch toilets instead of standard, Q3 plaster, finished floors. That adds about 70K upgrade costs, putting us at 300K.
Landscaping with 150 sqm (1,615 sq ft) paving and some topsoil added, lawn and planting a few bushes yourself: 20K
45 sqm (485 sq ft) carport: 10K, garage is of course considerably more expensive.
40K incidental building costs including kitchen and some new furniture.
That makes around 370K + 60K land cost - 4,500 BAFA subsidy for the ground source heat pump and 15K repayment grant from KfW.
Local prices for contracting out, of course cheaper if you can contribute own labor. I just don’t see 0.5 million here.
M
Mottenhausen10 Feb 2019 22:24Okay, then it might partly be the features included. We have extras like a freestanding bathtub, electrically operated shutters on both the ground and upper floors, all Q3 quality, a chimney, an open space (10 sqm (108 sq ft) or more, which is not included in the 160 sqm (1,722 sq ft) but is part of the building volume), Cat7 wiring, satellite system, better interior doors, and much more already included in the contract price.
In the end, we probably won’t be too far off, and I think the costs will come closer if you go into more detail. A photovoltaic system (for KfW 40+ standard) can vary widely in price. I’m happy for anyone who manages to do it more affordably; it’s not about boasting with a project budget (which is ridiculous since many here spend two or three times as much). I also know that our general contractor is not the cheapest, but I only have positive firsthand experience from friends and acquaintances. Well, then there’s the difference in the price of the land. That fits! So let’s keep our fingers crossed that the original poster can also manage with around 400,000 euros.
In the end, we probably won’t be too far off, and I think the costs will come closer if you go into more detail. A photovoltaic system (for KfW 40+ standard) can vary widely in price. I’m happy for anyone who manages to do it more affordably; it’s not about boasting with a project budget (which is ridiculous since many here spend two or three times as much). I also know that our general contractor is not the cheapest, but I only have positive firsthand experience from friends and acquaintances. Well, then there’s the difference in the price of the land. That fits! So let’s keep our fingers crossed that the original poster can also manage with around 400,000 euros.
B
Bau_Bambi21 Feb 2019 13:36Wow, things are really moving here, I hadn’t even thought about this topic recently.
In fact, we have been considering abandoning the whole "KFW" concept and trying to build with good insulation and a gas heating system instead. As a non-expert, I can’t say whether the costs will ever pay off in the long run – our hope is to keep annual expenses low through photovoltaic panels and a heat pump (we haven’t decided on the type yet) compared to a gas heating system.
However, the subsidies and a certain degree of independence from traditional suppliers (except electricity, of course) are quite appealing. Initially, we planned to build without photovoltaics, but with the KFW subsidies, the step toward the “+” (plus energy standard) isn’t as expensive anymore.
We have now chosen a different architect who gave us a good offer. Unfortunately, we have few comparison points, and in a neighboring district everything suddenly costs only half as much, which generally causes uncertainty. But he really convinced us personally and was able to contribute valuable advice to our quite specific ideas for the design.
The offer looks something like this:
Architect: Service phases 1-4
Structural engineer: Structural planning
Energy consultant: KFW subsidy application, photovoltaic simulation (whatever that is?), site supervision (important to us so that defects aren’t only discovered during the blower door test)
Total offer for everything: approximately €16,000 (about $17,200)
Additionally, according to him:
~€1,500 (about $1,600) for the building permit / planning permission
~€300 (about $320) for documents from the land registry office
~€1,500 (about $1,600) for a soil investigation report
All in all, that puts us just under €20,000 (about $21,500) gross, which covers the permit with everything included, and from there we can take over ourselves – at least that’s how I see it as a layperson.
One of our biggest issues is that the tradespeople we have contacted so far can’t give us any cost estimates. This makes sense since there is no design yet, but it makes cost estimation extremely difficult for us. We can only rely on average values from the internet and the architect’s experience. The subject of self-performance also makes the calculation very complex.
Our standards for fittings and finishes are modest. No Villeroy & Boch needed; 60€ (about $65) faucets are fine too. I would describe our target standard as rather “average.” The kitchen will be assembled from a Swedish furniture store and installed by ourselves. The appliances are Siemens-class and will be ordered online. We’re budgeting about €10,000 (approximately $10,800) for the kitchen (~12m² (130 sq ft)), which roughly matched what my parents spent (with self-performance and enough motivation) without compromising on comfort.
No chimney or fireplace is planned.
Paving will be minimal since the house will sit quite close to the street at the front. We plan to order the stones and do the laying ourselves.
Thank you very much for the lively participation!
In fact, we have been considering abandoning the whole "KFW" concept and trying to build with good insulation and a gas heating system instead. As a non-expert, I can’t say whether the costs will ever pay off in the long run – our hope is to keep annual expenses low through photovoltaic panels and a heat pump (we haven’t decided on the type yet) compared to a gas heating system.
However, the subsidies and a certain degree of independence from traditional suppliers (except electricity, of course) are quite appealing. Initially, we planned to build without photovoltaics, but with the KFW subsidies, the step toward the “+” (plus energy standard) isn’t as expensive anymore.
We have now chosen a different architect who gave us a good offer. Unfortunately, we have few comparison points, and in a neighboring district everything suddenly costs only half as much, which generally causes uncertainty. But he really convinced us personally and was able to contribute valuable advice to our quite specific ideas for the design.
The offer looks something like this:
Architect: Service phases 1-4
Structural engineer: Structural planning
Energy consultant: KFW subsidy application, photovoltaic simulation (whatever that is?), site supervision (important to us so that defects aren’t only discovered during the blower door test)
Total offer for everything: approximately €16,000 (about $17,200)
Additionally, according to him:
~€1,500 (about $1,600) for the building permit / planning permission
~€300 (about $320) for documents from the land registry office
~€1,500 (about $1,600) for a soil investigation report
All in all, that puts us just under €20,000 (about $21,500) gross, which covers the permit with everything included, and from there we can take over ourselves – at least that’s how I see it as a layperson.
One of our biggest issues is that the tradespeople we have contacted so far can’t give us any cost estimates. This makes sense since there is no design yet, but it makes cost estimation extremely difficult for us. We can only rely on average values from the internet and the architect’s experience. The subject of self-performance also makes the calculation very complex.
Our standards for fittings and finishes are modest. No Villeroy & Boch needed; 60€ (about $65) faucets are fine too. I would describe our target standard as rather “average.” The kitchen will be assembled from a Swedish furniture store and installed by ourselves. The appliances are Siemens-class and will be ordered online. We’re budgeting about €10,000 (approximately $10,800) for the kitchen (~12m² (130 sq ft)), which roughly matched what my parents spent (with self-performance and enough motivation) without compromising on comfort.
No chimney or fireplace is planned.
Paving will be minimal since the house will sit quite close to the street at the front. We plan to order the stones and do the laying ourselves.
Thank you very much for the lively participation!
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