ᐅ Single-family house new construction in Lower Saxony – architect’s fee amount?
Created on: 24 Jan 2019 16:34
B
Bau_Bambi
Hello everyone,
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
B
Bau_Bambi24 Jan 2019 22:06Fully enclosing the garage with walls would be strictly optional. A carport would also be an option, as it can serve as a shelter for the cars as well. Alternatively, it can simply be built later.
It should be mentioned that we plan to contribute a large amount of work ourselves, as we have family connections and insider contacts for all trades except for the foundation slab and masonry work.
Therefore, planning this is difficult for us without a preliminary assessment from the architect. That’s the situation regarding feasibility.
It should be mentioned that we plan to contribute a large amount of work ourselves, as we have family connections and insider contacts for all trades except for the foundation slab and masonry work.
Therefore, planning this is difficult for us without a preliminary assessment from the architect. That’s the situation regarding feasibility.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
The €60,000 for the plot and around €15,000-20,000 (planned for initial additional construction costs, architect, structural engineer, energy consultant, etc.) are equity. €250,000 are the pure planned costs for building the house, excluding the additional construction costs. I still don’t quite understand... €15,000-20,000 aren’t enough for the additional costs, right? So is there extra equity available or how does that work?
B
Bau_Bambi25 Jan 2019 16:35Yosan schrieb:
I still don’t quite understand... 15,000–20,000 aren’t enough for the additional costs, right? So is there extra equity or something? The equity is initially intended for the early stages.
My main focus is on the architect’s quote, which—as far as I understand—is based on the construction cost. This is set at €250,000 solely for building the house.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
So, this is budgeted at €250,000 solely for the house construction. Fuchur schrieb:
That will – clearly – not be enough. Take the words of @Fuchur seriously. He has valuable experience to draw on.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
Vitamin B Connections (even within the family) will abandon you as soon as a serious payer comes along. When money is involved, friendship ends; no one is willing to give anything away.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
Due to the building regulations, a townhouse with a flat roof is not allowed.
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 ft²), upper floor 60 m² (645 ft²)) to comply with the building requirements and still avoid sloped ceilings on the upper floor. This won’t be an inexpensive house – the construction method is quite costly because of many roof edges as well as the connection of the intermediate roof to the upper floor. The structural engineering is also rather complex.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of an initial inquiry to determine compatibility? Or is that asking too much? The Nikolaus House won’t show you if the chemistry is right. You figure that out with small talk.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
The €60,000 for the plot and about €15,000–20,000 (planned for initial incidental construction costs, architect, structural engineer, energy consultant, etc.) are equity. €250,000 are the planned pure construction costs for the house excluding incidental construction costs.
Does this clarify things a bit? Hope it helps with understanding. . As it stands, it’s confusing and misleading.
Land costs including purchasing incidental costs
House costs
Incidental construction costs
Outdoor work
= Total costs
Financing amount = Total costs - (equity - kitchen and furniture)
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
The equity is initially intended for the starting phases.
My main concern is the architect’s offer, which – if I understand correctly – is based on the construction sum. This is set at €250,000 just for building the house. Too low... roughly €300,000 for a 150 m² (1,615 ft²) gable roof house plus incidental construction costs.
We didn’t want to pay €250,000 for the house and decided to build with a general contractor instead, since the final price was fixed.
An architect often underestimates by about 20% (as you can often read here).