ᐅ Single-family house new construction in Lower Saxony – architect’s fee amount?
Created on: 24 Jan 2019 16:34
B
Bau_Bambi
Hello everyone,
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
B
Bau_Bambi8 Feb 2019 11:17Thank you for the suggestions so far.
We are still looking for offers. In fact, the offer seems even too low. We have now increased the total project costs (land, construction, additional costs) to approximately 400,000€ (about 430,000 USD). According to the architects we've spoken with so far, that should be feasible with the new conditions we have, including self-contributed work (KfW 40+, heat pump, controlled mechanical ventilation, photovoltaic system on the roof, 1.5 attic levels with 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)).
So, the question regarding the architect is temporarily closed. I am currently browsing other forums and will certainly ask a few questions there.
We are still looking for offers. In fact, the offer seems even too low. We have now increased the total project costs (land, construction, additional costs) to approximately 400,000€ (about 430,000 USD). According to the architects we've spoken with so far, that should be feasible with the new conditions we have, including self-contributed work (KfW 40+, heat pump, controlled mechanical ventilation, photovoltaic system on the roof, 1.5 attic levels with 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)).
So, the question regarding the architect is temporarily closed. I am currently browsing other forums and will certainly ask a few questions there.
M
Mottenhausen8 Feb 2019 14:01When I read about the 400,000, I thought: slowly it’s moving in the right direction, even if not with the unnecessarily expensive construction method of a recessed upper floor.
With
Total costs: 0.5 million. Our plot was more expensive than yours, but we are building “only” to KfW55 standard, including the kitchen. Similar house size; roughly speaking, the price should be comparable.
With
Bau_Bambi schrieb:, unfortunately, that positive feeling completely disappeared again.
KFW 40+
Total costs: 0.5 million. Our plot was more expensive than yours, but we are building “only” to KfW55 standard, including the kitchen. Similar house size; roughly speaking, the price should be comparable.
As a native ROWdy who has now built in the neighboring district, I would advise you to include some buffer in your budget. Building here is significantly cheaper than, for example, in Bavaria, but with KfW 40+ you already have some extra costs where you should consider whether it’s worth it.
He absolutely won’t reach such an amount. We built a house 10sqm (108 sq ft) larger but only KfW 55, and based on the quotes we received, it should be roughly the same. Around 400,000–420,000 is not unrealistic. And we practically had no additional costs.
Mottenhausen schrieb:
Total costs 0.5 million. Our plot was more expensive than yours, but we are building only KfW 55. Including kitchen. Similar house size, roughly it should come out to a similar price.
He absolutely won’t reach such an amount. We built a house 10sqm (108 sq ft) larger but only KfW 55, and based on the quotes we received, it should be roughly the same. Around 400,000–420,000 is not unrealistic. And we practically had no additional costs.
H
hampshire8 Feb 2019 15:42Never choose your architect based on price.
You need to be clear about how you want to live and what you like. Then it’s worth having a conversation with an architect. The architect must understand your goals in order to translate them into the design. An architect who designs something without really listening should be excluded from your selection. You will be living in the house, not them. Billing according to the [HOAI] fee structure is always consistent. Sometimes fixed prices can be agreed upon as exceptions.
Always start by calculating the full costs, then see what you can save through your own work or with "B-vitamins" (small adjustments or compromises). The tighter your budget, the more important it is to stay on the safe side and avoid underestimating costs. Only those who can afford to cover potential financial risks should take those risks.
You need to be clear about how you want to live and what you like. Then it’s worth having a conversation with an architect. The architect must understand your goals in order to translate them into the design. An architect who designs something without really listening should be excluded from your selection. You will be living in the house, not them. Billing according to the [HOAI] fee structure is always consistent. Sometimes fixed prices can be agreed upon as exceptions.
Always start by calculating the full costs, then see what you can save through your own work or with "B-vitamins" (small adjustments or compromises). The tighter your budget, the more important it is to stay on the safe side and avoid underestimating costs. Only those who can afford to cover potential financial risks should take those risks.
M
Mottenhausen9 Feb 2019 00:13@ares83 including the plot of land!!!
Mottenhausen schrieb:
@ares83 including the plot!!!Yes, of course. And without EL (except laminate flooring on the upper floor), I just took a look at our final statement last week.Similar topics