ᐅ Single-family house new construction in Lower Saxony – architect’s fee amount?
Created on: 24 Jan 2019 16:34
B
Bau_BambiB
Bau_Bambi24 Jan 2019 16:34Hello everyone,
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
Until now, I have been mostly silent here and focused on gathering information. But now that the project is taking more concrete shape, I have a few questions pressing on me.
We have already had an initial meeting with the architect, who was recommended by relatives who built with him two years ago.
Here are the main details we roughly agreed on:
- New construction of a single-family house in northern Lower Saxony
- Plot is available, about 820 m² (8,840 sq ft)
- House about 150 m² (1,615 sq ft)
- Due to building regulations, no urban villa is allowed
- The floors should be separated by a roof cornice (ground floor 90 m² (970 sq ft), upper floor 60 m² (645 sq ft)) to comply with regulations while avoiding sloping ceilings on the upper floor
- Garage/carport about 45 m² (485 sq ft)
- Underfloor heating throughout the house except in the utility room
- Geothermal heat pump with brine or gas as the energy source
- Ventilation system
- Loan amount including plot (approx. €60,000) around €250,000, upper limit €300,000
- Architect to cover design phases 1–4. After approval, we take over
During the initial meeting, the architect told us he would send us a fee proposal and a first draft.
Last week we received the fee proposal, and now it’s our turn again. Unfortunately, there was no sketch included. He presumably expects us to accept the offer before planning the next steps.
The offer is as follows:
* Basic evaluation and preliminary design (Design phases 1+2) = €2,400
* Design planning (Design phase 3) = €2,800
* Planning for approval (Design phase 4) = €1,600
Total = €6,800 plus VAT
That comes to about €8,000 — does that sound correct, or am I missing something?
Additionally, the following was agreed:
Fees
* Payment is based on the Fee Structure for Architects and Engineers (HOAI) valid at the time of contract signing.
* The project will be charged as a fixed lump-sum fee according to the listed services under item 2. The services can also be commissioned step-by-step.
* Incidental costs such as postage, phone, copies are included in the total fee.
* VAT at the applicable legal rate will be added to all fee and incidental cost claims.
* Payment will be made in installments based on completed partial services.
* If payment is not made on time, the contractor reserves the right to immediately suspend work without further notice. Claims for damages arising from this option are fully excluded.
* Services beyond those listed under item 2 (offer with design phases) such as changes and expansions of the scope of work will be billed separately on an hourly basis with proof, at the following hourly rates:
Necessary specialists (structural engineer/energy consultant) will be charged separately.
So far so good. Now for the questions:
1. How exactly is the fee calculated? I have read online that in the early design phases it is roughly estimated based on experience and the build environment. Is there any reason to complain here? I am not fully clear on §35 of the HOAI, especially since I don’t yet know the attributable costs myself.
2. In the fee paragraph it refers to item 2 (see above). Does this mean it is a fixed lump sum that remains constant regardless of changes in construction costs during design phases 1–4? (For example, removal of a chimney, different energy sources, etc.)
3. Regarding fees, the last point: Does this mean that substantial changes have to be paid for additionally? (Additional design phases are clear.) For example:
- The draft does not yet meet our requirements and needs adjustment (Design phase 3, §34 HOAI)
- The building permit is rejected due to deficiencies (Design phase 4, §34 HOAI)
Would those cases have to be paid for separately under that clause?
4. Does it make sense to ask the architect for a rough sketch as part of the initial engagement to check compatibility at all? Or is that asking too much?
5. In connection with fees, I often hear about 5% incidental costs — what does that refer to exactly?
As you can tell, I am not very familiar with this and would like to get your opinions first before approaching the architect.
Thank you very much for reading the whole text, and I look forward to constructive replies!
Best regards
The fee according to HOAI is calculated based on the construction sum, meaning the costs for all planned installations excluding VAT, additional construction costs, and the land.
How much is that exactly? Are you referring to the "loan amount"?
If the mentioned 250,000 minus 60,000 is supposed to represent the costs for the house including garage and additional construction costs, then you should recalculate. That will—by far—not be enough.
If you have equity funds in addition, include those in the construction costs. The architect does not care where the money comes from.
Without looking at the table now, I consider the estimated 8,000 to be too low. Since you explicitly want to bill according to HOAI, you risk receiving a final invoice for the difference between the 8,000 and the minimum fee at the end of the work.
How much is that exactly? Are you referring to the "loan amount"?
If the mentioned 250,000 minus 60,000 is supposed to represent the costs for the house including garage and additional construction costs, then you should recalculate. That will—by far—not be enough.
If you have equity funds in addition, include those in the construction costs. The architect does not care where the money comes from.
Without looking at the table now, I consider the estimated 8,000 to be too low. Since you explicitly want to bill according to HOAI, you risk receiving a final invoice for the difference between the 8,000 and the minimum fee at the end of the work.
The figures are somewhat oddly distributed, but overall up to design phase 4 they are acceptable. What you still need is a structural engineer up to design phase 5, which costs significantly more. And as already mentioned, hopefully the 300 are only for the house itself, excluding additional construction costs and the land.
B
Bau_Bambi24 Jan 2019 19:49Thanks for the answers so far.
I’ll add this to the top of the post right away. I forgot to include the equity.
So:
The €60,000 (about $65,000) for the land and approximately €15,000–20,000 (planned for initial ancillary building costs such as architect, structural engineer, energy consultant, etc.) are equity. The €250,000 (about $270,000) is the pure planned cost for the house construction excluding ancillary building costs.
Does this clear things up a bit? I hope it helps with understanding.
Edit: Ah, too bad, I can no longer edit the first post.
I’ll add this to the top of the post right away. I forgot to include the equity.
So:
The €60,000 (about $65,000) for the land and approximately €15,000–20,000 (planned for initial ancillary building costs such as architect, structural engineer, energy consultant, etc.) are equity. The €250,000 (about $270,000) is the pure planned cost for the house construction excluding ancillary building costs.
Does this clear things up a bit? I hope it helps with understanding.
Edit: Ah, too bad, I can no longer edit the first post.
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