Hello dear forum members,
I’m still quite unsure whether it’s better nowadays to build with a developer or with an architect. We are currently gathering house construction offers.
A short introduction about us:
We are currently a household of four. We will purchase the plot from our own funds, including property transfer tax and notary fees (no commission applies). The plot size is about 600 m2 (approximately 6,460 sq ft). The plot is designated as a building site and is fully developed (a building permit / planning permission could be obtained in 3-4 weeks). We only need to arrange the connection to the utility shaft (which is not far away).
Our wishes for the house:
A 1.5-story house (about 120 - 130 m2 (1,290 - 1,400 sq ft)) with a pitched roof, with storage space in the attic.
Upper floor: 3 children’s rooms, bedroom, large bathroom.
Ground floor: open kitchen, dining and living area, guest bathroom, heating/utility room, possibly a storage room behind the kitchen.
Underfloor heating throughout, corner bathtub, anthracite-colored roof as well as anthracite-colored windows, shutters on the windows. We want to build a double garage ourselves step by step, only the foundation slab should be poured professionally. No fireplace, no basement. We want to build solidly and cost-effectively but with good quality—so not the cheapest of the cheap, but no extravagant features like golden faucets either.
We plan to do the exterior landscaping, painting and wallpapering work, as well as floor coverings (except tiles) and the garage (except for the foundation) ourselves later on.
We already visited an architect who couldn’t provide exact figures yet, as he first wants to develop the floor plan with us. We also met with a developer (Town & Country). In the first meeting, they already gave us figures. Now we are skeptical whether these numbers are realistic or just nicely calculated. We are also uncertain whether to build with a developer or an architect. We have heard a lot of stories about poor workmanship by developers, and that contracts often have loopholes. So far, we have not heard any negative feedback about Town & Country regionally, so we had a first consultation with this developer. The salesperson was very friendly and patiently explained many things, but of course, they also want to make a sale. We now believe that the numbers may have been presented too favorably. Therefore, we are asking experienced builders for advice on whether this looks realistic so far...
The following was calculated in the first meeting: (We emphasized that we do not want additional financing later and therefore don’t want the calculation to be too tight.)
Construction and ancillary costs:
Our house with Town & Country (Lichthaus) with the mentioned rooms and special requests (house color: light yellow (possibly another color, just an example), underfloor heating throughout, corner bathtub, anthracite-colored roof, anthracite-colored windows, shutters on the windows)
€199,170
Connection fees and costs (water, wastewater, electricity, gas, sewer connection): €10,000
Cost for foundation reinforcement, foundation height increase: €5,000
Soil excavation removal: €1,000
Construction water and power connection: €1,000
Materials for wallpapering and floor coverings: €5,000
Materials for the exterior landscaping: €5,000
Garage 6x8 m (20x26 ft) foundation slab: €8,000
Site plan, staking out, permit fees, other fees: €3,500
Interest during construction period: €2,500
Contingency for selections, kitchen: €10,000
Additional notary fees: €1,000
Total costs: €251,170
This would be the loan amount we would need to take out. Own work and the plot are already deducted.
Sounds pretty good overall, but we are skeptical whether the numbers are just presented too nicely or if something is still missing.
For example, where exactly are the surveying costs accounted for? All included in the €3,500? Is that realistic?
I’ve often read online that the cost for construction water and power connection is usually around €2,000. What exactly do they mean by connection here? I thought this referred to the consumption during construction. The plot should already be connected with the calculated €10,000, right?
Also, we wanted to plan €10,000 for the kitchen. That means there is €0 contingency for selections included. I think you usually need to budget at least another €10,000 for fittings. He always said they already have nice standards and if we don’t want golden faucets, this should be sufficient. According to my online research, however, these standards are often very basic and not always very attractive. Of course, we don’t want golden faucets or exaggerated features, but it should be a bit nice, so you’d still want to budget some contingency for selections...
Is something missing in the above initial overview, or is the estimate really too low? I appreciate your experience, feedback, and tips. Also regarding the developer Town & Country.
Best regards
I’m still quite unsure whether it’s better nowadays to build with a developer or with an architect. We are currently gathering house construction offers.
A short introduction about us:
We are currently a household of four. We will purchase the plot from our own funds, including property transfer tax and notary fees (no commission applies). The plot size is about 600 m2 (approximately 6,460 sq ft). The plot is designated as a building site and is fully developed (a building permit / planning permission could be obtained in 3-4 weeks). We only need to arrange the connection to the utility shaft (which is not far away).
Our wishes for the house:
A 1.5-story house (about 120 - 130 m2 (1,290 - 1,400 sq ft)) with a pitched roof, with storage space in the attic.
Upper floor: 3 children’s rooms, bedroom, large bathroom.
Ground floor: open kitchen, dining and living area, guest bathroom, heating/utility room, possibly a storage room behind the kitchen.
Underfloor heating throughout, corner bathtub, anthracite-colored roof as well as anthracite-colored windows, shutters on the windows. We want to build a double garage ourselves step by step, only the foundation slab should be poured professionally. No fireplace, no basement. We want to build solidly and cost-effectively but with good quality—so not the cheapest of the cheap, but no extravagant features like golden faucets either.
We plan to do the exterior landscaping, painting and wallpapering work, as well as floor coverings (except tiles) and the garage (except for the foundation) ourselves later on.
We already visited an architect who couldn’t provide exact figures yet, as he first wants to develop the floor plan with us. We also met with a developer (Town & Country). In the first meeting, they already gave us figures. Now we are skeptical whether these numbers are realistic or just nicely calculated. We are also uncertain whether to build with a developer or an architect. We have heard a lot of stories about poor workmanship by developers, and that contracts often have loopholes. So far, we have not heard any negative feedback about Town & Country regionally, so we had a first consultation with this developer. The salesperson was very friendly and patiently explained many things, but of course, they also want to make a sale. We now believe that the numbers may have been presented too favorably. Therefore, we are asking experienced builders for advice on whether this looks realistic so far...
The following was calculated in the first meeting: (We emphasized that we do not want additional financing later and therefore don’t want the calculation to be too tight.)
Construction and ancillary costs:
Our house with Town & Country (Lichthaus) with the mentioned rooms and special requests (house color: light yellow (possibly another color, just an example), underfloor heating throughout, corner bathtub, anthracite-colored roof, anthracite-colored windows, shutters on the windows)
€199,170
Connection fees and costs (water, wastewater, electricity, gas, sewer connection): €10,000
Cost for foundation reinforcement, foundation height increase: €5,000
Soil excavation removal: €1,000
Construction water and power connection: €1,000
Materials for wallpapering and floor coverings: €5,000
Materials for the exterior landscaping: €5,000
Garage 6x8 m (20x26 ft) foundation slab: €8,000
Site plan, staking out, permit fees, other fees: €3,500
Interest during construction period: €2,500
Contingency for selections, kitchen: €10,000
Additional notary fees: €1,000
Total costs: €251,170
This would be the loan amount we would need to take out. Own work and the plot are already deducted.
Sounds pretty good overall, but we are skeptical whether the numbers are just presented too nicely or if something is still missing.
For example, where exactly are the surveying costs accounted for? All included in the €3,500? Is that realistic?
I’ve often read online that the cost for construction water and power connection is usually around €2,000. What exactly do they mean by connection here? I thought this referred to the consumption during construction. The plot should already be connected with the calculated €10,000, right?
Also, we wanted to plan €10,000 for the kitchen. That means there is €0 contingency for selections included. I think you usually need to budget at least another €10,000 for fittings. He always said they already have nice standards and if we don’t want golden faucets, this should be sufficient. According to my online research, however, these standards are often very basic and not always very attractive. Of course, we don’t want golden faucets or exaggerated features, but it should be a bit nice, so you’d still want to budget some contingency for selections...
Is something missing in the above initial overview, or is the estimate really too low? I appreciate your experience, feedback, and tips. Also regarding the developer Town & Country.
Best regards
Newcomer123 schrieb:
We have quite a bit of experience with painting and wallpapering. We have also laid laminate flooring ourselves. Of course, we won’t build the garage ourselves; we’ll have that done later! Laminate flooring, sure. Painting, okay, but have you ever painted a stairwell in a single-family house? And are you aware that before painting, you first have to fill and sand the walls, which is a lot more time-consuming than the actual whitewashing? For non-professionals, that can easily take several weeks of work for two people..
Town & Country is okay but rather lower standard. As long as you’re aware of that, it’s completely fine. They also build solid houses. However, you should carefully consider which features you really want and compare them with what Town & Country offers. I would plan a considerable allowance for upgrades (definitely around 20,000 €).
Just a few notes on the listed costs:
Connection fees and costs (water, sewage, electricity, gas, sewer connection): 10,000 € — reasonable
Costs for improved foundation, foundation height increase: 5,000 € — you need to assess the plot yourself (if it’s really flat, that might be realistic)
Soil removal disposal: 1,000 € — that’s almost nothing; landfill for soil disposal is quite expensive. I would plan at least a 10,000 € buffer here
Construction water and temporary electricity connection: 1,000 € — might be a bit low but doesn’t make a huge difference
Materials for wallpapering and flooring: 5,000 € — far too low; how many square meters is the flooring supposed to cover? Maybe a lot will be tiled, and that could be included by Town & Country?
Materials for outdoor areas: 5,000 € — that’s nothing even if you do the work yourself. Just consider the cost of gravel and the cheapest paving stones from a hardware store. That doesn’t include flower beds, splash guard, planting, lawn, terrace, possibly a terrace roof, exterior lighting, maybe even a small retaining wall. I would estimate 20,000 € for self-performed work.
Garage 6x8 m floor slab: 8,000 € — is that only for the floor slab? How much have you budgeted for the garage itself (even if it comes later)?
Site plan, staking, permit fees, other fees: 3,500 € — roughly realistic
Interest during construction: 2,500 €
Allowance for upgrades, kitchen: 10,000 € — a kitchen alone for 10k is quite tight but doable, provided you stick to IKEA and have some DIY skills. Then there’s likely no allowance left for upgrades. Where are the other furnishings? Even if you think everything is included: bathroom furniture, coat rack? Lamps alone can be quite costly.
Additional notary fees: 1,000 € — probably a bit low
All in all, the budget is very tight and I consider it unrealistic. Even if you really avoid upgrades (which requires some discipline with Town & Country), I would expect at least 20,000 € in additional costs plus the garage (and then also a buffer for upgrades).
I’d also like to see a floor plan with 3 children’s rooms and a large bathroom at this size.
We are building 3 children’s rooms ourselves, and I think nothing sensible can be done under 150-160 sqm (for me).
Just a few notes on the listed costs:
Connection fees and costs (water, sewage, electricity, gas, sewer connection): 10,000 € — reasonable
Costs for improved foundation, foundation height increase: 5,000 € — you need to assess the plot yourself (if it’s really flat, that might be realistic)
Soil removal disposal: 1,000 € — that’s almost nothing; landfill for soil disposal is quite expensive. I would plan at least a 10,000 € buffer here
Construction water and temporary electricity connection: 1,000 € — might be a bit low but doesn’t make a huge difference
Materials for wallpapering and flooring: 5,000 € — far too low; how many square meters is the flooring supposed to cover? Maybe a lot will be tiled, and that could be included by Town & Country?
Materials for outdoor areas: 5,000 € — that’s nothing even if you do the work yourself. Just consider the cost of gravel and the cheapest paving stones from a hardware store. That doesn’t include flower beds, splash guard, planting, lawn, terrace, possibly a terrace roof, exterior lighting, maybe even a small retaining wall. I would estimate 20,000 € for self-performed work.
Garage 6x8 m floor slab: 8,000 € — is that only for the floor slab? How much have you budgeted for the garage itself (even if it comes later)?
Site plan, staking, permit fees, other fees: 3,500 € — roughly realistic
Interest during construction: 2,500 €
Allowance for upgrades, kitchen: 10,000 € — a kitchen alone for 10k is quite tight but doable, provided you stick to IKEA and have some DIY skills. Then there’s likely no allowance left for upgrades. Where are the other furnishings? Even if you think everything is included: bathroom furniture, coat rack? Lamps alone can be quite costly.
Additional notary fees: 1,000 € — probably a bit low
All in all, the budget is very tight and I consider it unrealistic. Even if you really avoid upgrades (which requires some discipline with Town & Country), I would expect at least 20,000 € in additional costs plus the garage (and then also a buffer for upgrades).
I’d also like to see a floor plan with 3 children’s rooms and a large bathroom at this size.
We are building 3 children’s rooms ourselves, and I think nothing sensible can be done under 150-160 sqm (for me).
kaho674 schrieb:
Show me a floor plan for a 1.5-story house with 120m² (1,292 sq ft), where you have 3 children’s bedrooms, a master bedroom, and a large bathroom upstairs, plus accessible storage space in the attic peak.That is mentioned in the original post, but later the "Lichthaus" from Town & Country is discussed – which has nearly 160m² (1,722 sq ft) and 4 bedrooms of 12 to 14m² (130 to 150 sq ft) each in the upper floor. Contradictory, yes.
N
Newcomer1236 Aug 2019 11:09Scout schrieb:
Although it is mentioned in the original post, further discussion refers to the "Lichthaus" by Town & Country – which has just under 160 m2 (1,722 sq ft) and 4 bedrooms measuring between 12 and 14 m2 (129 and 151 sq ft) in the attic. Contradictory, yes. The Lichthaus 121 is potentially going to be built, which has 120.46 m2 (1,297 sq ft) of living space, so there is nothing contradictory...
N
Newcomer1236 Aug 2019 11:14Newcomer123 schrieb:
The Lichthaus 121 might be built, which has a living area of 120.46 m2 (1,297 sq ft), nothing contradictory...We’re not fixating on the exact square meters yet, but we also don’t want a house with 170 to 180 m2 (1,831 to 1,937 sq ft). And when the kids have moved out, what do you do with so many rooms and all that space? You have to think about the future, too. After all, we’re only building once for a lifetime. Besides, all that space needs to be cleaned and maintained as well.Newcomer123 schrieb:
We already have experience painting and wallpapering multiple times. We’ve also installed laminate flooring ourselves. Naturally, we won’t be building the garage ourselves; we’ll have that constructed later! Alright, great. But your exterior landscaping with electrical installation is also included. Laminating or painting one room is different from doing an entire house. Vacation days will quickly disappear.
Someone who works at a desk can suffer difficult long-term consequences – that needs to be considered. But it’s all doable.
Scout schrieb:
They’re talking about the "Lichthaus" from Town & Country – "My" Lichthaus is 121 m² (1300 ft²)... do all Flairs now get called "Lichthaus" just because they have one more window or dormer?
Architect-designed homes, as well as those from Town & Country and various solid construction companies like Weberhaus, all have their justification.
However, you have to understand that it’s not a competition to find the cheapest house like a refrigerator, where you just check online where it’s cheapest and then buy it with some discount coupons at a very low price.
For the price, you genuinely get considerably less or more. And yes, the house works.
Whereas with company xy, underfloor heating, KfW55 standard, controlled mechanical ventilation, and 30 x 60 cm (12 x 24 inch) tiles are already included in the price, with some others you get a budget house. Some people say “better a budget house than no house,” others take this budget house as a modular system and upgrade it extensively or somewhat. That’s all legitimate and understandable based on the budget.
Still, you should keep in mind that many small costs eventually add up to the point where you might have been able to afford a more expensive house for less. The well-established plumbing team of company xy can install controlled mechanical ventilation flawlessly and meet KfW55 requirements without any defects, while the budget house crew may have less experience at this quality level and might need to redo work several times to meet KfW55 standards. Also, the tiler might not want to work with large-format tiles and charge extremely high prices for installation.
You have to weigh and calculate all that.
You don’t necessarily need to choose the cheapest builder if you can afford better and naturally want something beyond standard.
Newcomer123 schrieb:
Lichthaus 121 is possibly going to be built; that's 120.46 m² (1297 ft²) of living space, nothing contradictory… But you can’t fit four bedrooms on the upper floor. Keep in mind that there are sloped ceilings upstairs and there also need to be entrances for each room.
And the utility room of just under 5 m² (54 ft²) is absolutely inadequate. I wouldn’t want that even in a two-person household.