Hello everyone,
and in several ways at once, since I am completely new to this forum.
I am in the process of converting a former barn building (removing small windows, installing floor-to-ceiling windows; removing gates on the upper floor and installing windows instead; reroofing and insulating the roof; creating an opening for a door). I have now received a fee proposal from the architect for this:
- Preparing the building permit / planning permission application with description, building data, and property map for 1,180 EUR net, which I accept
- Plus 5% incidental costs (for copies, plotting, phone calls, etc.) at 196.65 EUR net, which seems quite high to me, but okay, maybe they print on gold paper…
What really puzzles me is the item
Transfer to CAD
3 floor plans, section, and elevations
about 24 hours of a technical employee
about 8 hours of an architect
I am very IT-savvy and quite familiar with software. When I enter the building’s floor plans into one of the common home building programs by bhv & Co, it takes me about 30 to 60 minutes, and I have to search for the needed functions. For a technical employee, I assume they know the software—probably with more detailed data input than I do in my hobby program. So, to be generous, I estimated 4 hours (200 m² (2,150 sq ft) floor area; 2 floors, although only the upper floor is relevant here, with 2 large rectangular rooms and a staircase leading up).
Why are 32 hours required for this???
I am a project manager and often hire external expertise. In principle, I am a big advocate of paying specialists who know their craft well for good performance. I come from consulting myself, and we include cushions in our offers of between 50 and 100%—but this seems to me like a buffer of over 800%. Maybe it’s because I am simply unclear about everything that must be done in those 32 hours. Can someone please explain this to me?
Thanks and best regards,
Melville
and in several ways at once, since I am completely new to this forum.
I am in the process of converting a former barn building (removing small windows, installing floor-to-ceiling windows; removing gates on the upper floor and installing windows instead; reroofing and insulating the roof; creating an opening for a door). I have now received a fee proposal from the architect for this:
- Preparing the building permit / planning permission application with description, building data, and property map for 1,180 EUR net, which I accept
- Plus 5% incidental costs (for copies, plotting, phone calls, etc.) at 196.65 EUR net, which seems quite high to me, but okay, maybe they print on gold paper…
What really puzzles me is the item
Transfer to CAD
3 floor plans, section, and elevations
about 24 hours of a technical employee
about 8 hours of an architect
I am very IT-savvy and quite familiar with software. When I enter the building’s floor plans into one of the common home building programs by bhv & Co, it takes me about 30 to 60 minutes, and I have to search for the needed functions. For a technical employee, I assume they know the software—probably with more detailed data input than I do in my hobby program. So, to be generous, I estimated 4 hours (200 m² (2,150 sq ft) floor area; 2 floors, although only the upper floor is relevant here, with 2 large rectangular rooms and a staircase leading up).
Why are 32 hours required for this???
I am a project manager and often hire external expertise. In principle, I am a big advocate of paying specialists who know their craft well for good performance. I come from consulting myself, and we include cushions in our offers of between 50 and 100%—but this seems to me like a buffer of over 800%. Maybe it’s because I am simply unclear about everything that must be done in those 32 hours. Can someone please explain this to me?
Thanks and best regards,
Melville
I don’t find that unreasonable at all. I’m a draftsman myself, although in building services engineering, but 24 hours go by quickly—that’s about 3 working days to prepare a plan detailed enough to be approval-ready. I wouldn’t make the mistake of comparing that to some hobby-like “drawing” approach. 😉
As I said, I only know my own time investment; I’m not really involved in construction drawings, but that seems reasonable and completely fair to me.
How large is the barn? Are there any plans for it, or did the architect first have to do a survey of the existing structure?
As I said, I only know my own time investment; I’m not really involved in construction drawings, but that seems reasonable and completely fair to me.
How large is the barn? Are there any plans for it, or did the architect first have to do a survey of the existing structure?
Yes, the original construction drawings and the structural calculations do exist — it definitely makes sense to review and, if necessary, update them afterward. This is also a separate item in the fee proposal.
I also think this can’t really be compared to my hobby-level software — which is why I already included a factor of 4. But three days of work just seems too long to me, and I honestly can’t imagine what could fill three full days.
Roughly simplified: draw five walls (north, east, south, west, and one wall that separates the two rooms; one wall has a bend), add an opening between room 1 and room 2, draw two windows, two doors, a staircase from below, and the roof with exposed rafters and an x-degree pitch — set the room height at the wall and enter the maximum height at the highest point of the roof (if it’s not directly calculated from the pitch). That completes the current state. For the planned state, add an opening for a second door, extend the windows to floor height, and convert the two doors into windows. Change the fiber cement roof into a properly covered and insulated roof. That’s it. And that takes three days? Plus an extra day for the architect?
I also think this can’t really be compared to my hobby-level software — which is why I already included a factor of 4. But three days of work just seems too long to me, and I honestly can’t imagine what could fill three full days.
Roughly simplified: draw five walls (north, east, south, west, and one wall that separates the two rooms; one wall has a bend), add an opening between room 1 and room 2, draw two windows, two doors, a staircase from below, and the roof with exposed rafters and an x-degree pitch — set the room height at the wall and enter the maximum height at the highest point of the roof (if it’s not directly calculated from the pitch). That completes the current state. For the planned state, add an opening for a second door, extend the windows to floor height, and convert the two doors into windows. Change the fiber cement roof into a properly covered and insulated roof. That’s it. And that takes three days? Plus an extra day for the architect?
As I said, it really doesn’t seem to me that the architect is trying to overcharge. If you look at it from another perspective:
24 hours minus a 50% buffer leaves 16 hours. Just considering that a layout has to be created, everything properly labeled and prepared, the work involved in the plan’s format alone takes about 2 to 4 hours. So that leaves around 12 hours for the actual drawing.
If the architect is not yet working in 3D (which is not uncommon), they have to create the views and sections separately and cannot simply generate them as a “byproduct” of the floor plans.
If you add everything up roughly, you could even say that 16 to 20 hours might be possible if you’re being very exact. However, this can’t really be judged because there is also the structural engineering calculation happening during the lead time.
If I were you, I would just politely ask him to explain the time involved and what exactly is included in it. 😉
24 hours minus a 50% buffer leaves 16 hours. Just considering that a layout has to be created, everything properly labeled and prepared, the work involved in the plan’s format alone takes about 2 to 4 hours. So that leaves around 12 hours for the actual drawing.
If the architect is not yet working in 3D (which is not uncommon), they have to create the views and sections separately and cannot simply generate them as a “byproduct” of the floor plans.
If you add everything up roughly, you could even say that 16 to 20 hours might be possible if you’re being very exact. However, this can’t really be judged because there is also the structural engineering calculation happening during the lead time.
If I were you, I would just politely ask him to explain the time involved and what exactly is included in it. 😉
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