ᐅ Construction method: prefabricated house, solid (or masonry) house, construction manager, architectural design
Created on: 5 Aug 2014 15:59
V
Voki1
Hello dear forum members,
I have now joined this forum and hope to get some useful ideas and suggestions.
We have found and purchased our dream plot of land. It is 1600 square meters (17,200 square feet) with plenty of space for children’s play areas around it.
Now the question is what we can do with the “remaining” budget of about EUR 270,000 to a maximum of EUR 300,000. Realistically, I can hardly do much myself. Well, I can still manage wallpapering and laying carpets, parquet, and laminate flooring. But beyond that, I have neither the talent nor the time.
We live in Northern Germany, more precisely in the Ammerland region.
We are struggling with three fundamental considerations and are not making much progress. The first question is how to actually build. Basically, we are considering three options: a) prefabricated house, b) solid / masonry house with a construction manager, and c) architect-designed home.
a) Prefabricated house
We have found some interesting ideas here, and we like the building method quite a lot. In particular, Schwörerhaus matches our ideas best. However, prefabricated houses apparently have the downside that they are not cheaper to build and tend to sell only at significant price reductions (if resale happens at all).
We are initially assuming that a sale will not be necessary. Are there other disadvantages that I might not be aware of? Regarding acoustic insulation, I understand that many technical improvements have been made. Are there suppliers here who can be recommended with confidence?
b) Construction manager
I have already had two semi-detached houses built turnkey using a construction manager. Both were solid masonry buildings, and the completion went quite well. Of course, there were problems — actually quite a few — but they were solved satisfactorily each time. When that many trades and people come together... mistakes happen and sometimes people are just careless. But as I said, everything worked out well in the end.
I expect (slightly) lower total costs with a construction manager because you are basically buying “off the shelf” rather than commissioning a completely new design. This way, planning costs are spread over many clients, and the overall calculation may look more favorable. And that is exactly my question: can this really be the case? The construction manager acts as general contractor and is liable for all damages and complaints. I would initially hire only a company that has been active and successful in the local market for a long time and has good creditworthiness. But wouldn’t such a company also reflect the general contractor risk in a surcharge on the prices they pay to subcontractors? Will you really end up paying less? How is this usually handled? Am I completely wrong here?
c) Architect-designed home
This is actually my preferred option. On the other hand, I do not know a single architect. I have zero experience and am a little worried about ending up with one you really should not hire. Also, the costs seem quite high in comparison. Of course, that may be only subjective because prefabricated house manufacturers and construction managers do not usually disclose their calculations, so these costs are not transparent to me.
It’s all quite frustrating.
I only know a little so far. The living area should be about 140 to 150 square meters (1500 to 1600 square feet). KfW-70 standard, nothing fancy, no basement, standard fittings. Am I way off with about 1500 euros per square meter here? As I said, I do not want to exceed my total budget because I want to pay it off someday. I am aiming for a loan term of about 17 years (because of retirement), which limits the loan amount.
Thank you very much for your comments — even from those who cannot really answer the questions but want to point that out.
Volker
I have now joined this forum and hope to get some useful ideas and suggestions.
We have found and purchased our dream plot of land. It is 1600 square meters (17,200 square feet) with plenty of space for children’s play areas around it.
Now the question is what we can do with the “remaining” budget of about EUR 270,000 to a maximum of EUR 300,000. Realistically, I can hardly do much myself. Well, I can still manage wallpapering and laying carpets, parquet, and laminate flooring. But beyond that, I have neither the talent nor the time.
We live in Northern Germany, more precisely in the Ammerland region.
We are struggling with three fundamental considerations and are not making much progress. The first question is how to actually build. Basically, we are considering three options: a) prefabricated house, b) solid / masonry house with a construction manager, and c) architect-designed home.
a) Prefabricated house
We have found some interesting ideas here, and we like the building method quite a lot. In particular, Schwörerhaus matches our ideas best. However, prefabricated houses apparently have the downside that they are not cheaper to build and tend to sell only at significant price reductions (if resale happens at all).
We are initially assuming that a sale will not be necessary. Are there other disadvantages that I might not be aware of? Regarding acoustic insulation, I understand that many technical improvements have been made. Are there suppliers here who can be recommended with confidence?
b) Construction manager
I have already had two semi-detached houses built turnkey using a construction manager. Both were solid masonry buildings, and the completion went quite well. Of course, there were problems — actually quite a few — but they were solved satisfactorily each time. When that many trades and people come together... mistakes happen and sometimes people are just careless. But as I said, everything worked out well in the end.
I expect (slightly) lower total costs with a construction manager because you are basically buying “off the shelf” rather than commissioning a completely new design. This way, planning costs are spread over many clients, and the overall calculation may look more favorable. And that is exactly my question: can this really be the case? The construction manager acts as general contractor and is liable for all damages and complaints. I would initially hire only a company that has been active and successful in the local market for a long time and has good creditworthiness. But wouldn’t such a company also reflect the general contractor risk in a surcharge on the prices they pay to subcontractors? Will you really end up paying less? How is this usually handled? Am I completely wrong here?
c) Architect-designed home
This is actually my preferred option. On the other hand, I do not know a single architect. I have zero experience and am a little worried about ending up with one you really should not hire. Also, the costs seem quite high in comparison. Of course, that may be only subjective because prefabricated house manufacturers and construction managers do not usually disclose their calculations, so these costs are not transparent to me.
It’s all quite frustrating.
I only know a little so far. The living area should be about 140 to 150 square meters (1500 to 1600 square feet). KfW-70 standard, nothing fancy, no basement, standard fittings. Am I way off with about 1500 euros per square meter here? As I said, I do not want to exceed my total budget because I want to pay it off someday. I am aiming for a loan term of about 17 years (because of retirement), which limits the loan amount.
Thank you very much for your comments — even from those who cannot really answer the questions but want to point that out.
Volker
B
Bauexperte6 Aug 2014 21:23Voki1 schrieb:
IV. Architect / Construction Supervisor
My wife and I are not fans of exaggerated promises, and grand but unrealistic price quotes rather make us suspicious. In any case, they wouldn’t be able to pressure us into a contract with such claims. I would thoroughly review the contract with colleagues since I’m also a lawyer, by the way.These are excellent starting conditions!Voki1 schrieb:
a) Architect contract: If I understand correctly, I need to clearly define the scope of work (which is usually the case with contracts). The fees are then calculated based on a "table." This classification might include special considerations for complexity and difficulty. Those would then be the points potentially open for negotiation.The contract is not negotiable, since the HOAI (fee structure for architects and engineers) is not negotiable either. There are so-called service phases (search for the full HOAI text online, or on legal sites like dejure, or via the architects’ chamber responsible for Lower Saxony), based on which you can agree on the corresponding phases with your trusted architect.Voki1 schrieb:
I am a bit worried about this black box where prices basically still need to be obtained. You don’t really know if everything fits as you imagine. You have to rely completely on the experience and effort of the architect; otherwise, the budget can quickly be exceeded.That is true. Since you are a lawyer, you have probably already found relevant court rulings on this topic and may be somewhat disillusioned.You are mostly on the safe side if you calculate €1,500.00/sqm (approximately $160/sqft) plus around €35,000-40,000 (approx. $38,000-$43,000) additional construction-related costs, plus €10,000 (approx. $11,000) as a reserve for extras, plus €20,000 (approx. $21,500) for painting and flooring included in the construction services, plus €10,000 (approx. $11,000) for exterior work (there will likely be nothing more than some gravel and turf on your property), as well as the cost for a prefab garage. Don’t be tempted if the architect comes up with a smaller figure; if he’s right in the end, the landscaping contractor might still be affordable. If not, you have covered the total amount and avoid unpleasant talks with your lender.
Voki1 schrieb:
On the other hand, construction supervisors acting as general contractors will have some price risk since they negotiate a fixed price with us but might also face possible price increases. They will factor this risk into the prices they negotiate with us beforehand. Anything else would be unwise, and I don’t think they are unwise here.Probably not, as they negotiate their terms with suppliers at the end of each year for the coming year; the risk is therefore manageable at all times.Voki1 schrieb:
b) Construction supervision contract
Basically, we would select all materials and components by sampling and list everything by name in the construction/performance description, then check if the price still holds.Here is where the lawyer speaks.After handling this twice, you should be well aware that a construction project supervised by a construction manager cannot be described down to the last detail. It is actually sufficient to specify “German brand products” and refer to “built according to the applicable technical standards...,” especially if your gut agrees with your head and the chemistry between you fits. Otherwise, I do recommend awarding individual trades via an architect.
Voki1 schrieb:
Additionally, they will have to accept that I will have an expert accompany the construction.Serious providers have no problem with this; on the contrary, they welcome it because four eyes see more than two.Voki1 schrieb:
Some cynical voices claim that they somehow participate in profits through commissions or bonuses during re-calculations, while, of course, being on the company payroll as well.Sorry, that’s bar talk; even the budget builders can’t afford that. Usually, institutions like DEKRA or TÜV are involved as inspection bodies; these are commercial enterprises with reputations to protect, which should be obvious. The days when you might slip a German technical inspection inspector a crate of beer hoping for the coveted approval sticker are long gone.Voki1 schrieb:
SUMMARY:
We will now take concrete steps next week and then have a more detailed cost idea. Then to the bank, since they absolutely need some kind of calculation basis, which will probably include a buffer above.From my point of view, that’s exactly the wrong order. FIRST talk to the bank or an independent mortgage broker, then raise your expectations (within your financial limits).Regards, Bauexperte
@Bauexperte
Could you describe that in a bit more detail? We are in the final stages of our planning and are choosing between a conventional house builder (monolithic wall construction) and one of the "better" prefab manufacturers. For both construction methods, we see many advantages and disadvantages, so we want to decide based on the more creative design. Nevertheless, we are also very interested in experience reports about prefab houses that have been standing for a while – in our area, we haven’t seen many yet, and all of our friends have built with solid construction.
Could you describe that in a bit more detail? We are in the final stages of our planning and are choosing between a conventional house builder (monolithic wall construction) and one of the "better" prefab manufacturers. For both construction methods, we see many advantages and disadvantages, so we want to decide based on the more creative design. Nevertheless, we are also very interested in experience reports about prefab houses that have been standing for a while – in our area, we haven’t seen many yet, and all of our friends have built with solid construction.
Bauexperte schrieb:
Within this context, we have looked at quite a few prefab houses and, by now – if I weren’t already a convinced fan of solid construction – I would definitely avoid prefab houses; whether they are 20, 10 years old, or newer. It’s sometimes quite shocking how such a house looks after just a few years.
B
Bauexperte11 Aug 2014 15:41Hello,
The last prefabricated house we looked at during our search already looked about 10 years older from the outside than it actually was; inside it was not much better. For example, the rafters in the attic were left exposed (wood naturally moves throughout its lifetime, so you have to like that), and cracks were everywhere. Also – not uncommon with prefab houses – there was a large amount of glazing in the form of skylights and triangular gable windows, but the connection points to the exterior shell were mostly deteriorated; moisture had penetrated. The same applied to the basement – we were told that the moisture readings were between 55-60 digits; normal for a utility basement built in 1989. In reality, we would have had to fully waterproof the basement because the black mold had only been roughly painted over; our expert did not find that very amusing.
However, you have to keep in mind that we looked at houses between 10 and a maximum of 25 years old and – still for the solid construction sector – the general assumption is a service life of 60 years for prefabricated houses and 80 years for solid single-family homes. The prefabricated house industry has made huge progress over the last 10 years, which is also reflected in their newer houses; so in 10 years from now, these houses probably will not look as worn.
Regards, Bauexperte
Sunnx schrieb:That is an interesting approach
Could you describe that a bit more precisely? We are in the final stages of our planning and are still deciding between a conventional builder (monolithic wall construction) and one of the “better” prefabricated house manufacturers. For both building methods, we find many pros and cons, so we want to go with the more creative design.
Sunnx schrieb:Maybe it’s because I work professionally with the construction of solid single-family homes...
Nevertheless, we are very interested in experience reports about prefabricated houses that have been standing for some time – in our area, we have not seen many, and all our friends have built with solid construction.
The last prefabricated house we looked at during our search already looked about 10 years older from the outside than it actually was; inside it was not much better. For example, the rafters in the attic were left exposed (wood naturally moves throughout its lifetime, so you have to like that), and cracks were everywhere. Also – not uncommon with prefab houses – there was a large amount of glazing in the form of skylights and triangular gable windows, but the connection points to the exterior shell were mostly deteriorated; moisture had penetrated. The same applied to the basement – we were told that the moisture readings were between 55-60 digits; normal for a utility basement built in 1989. In reality, we would have had to fully waterproof the basement because the black mold had only been roughly painted over; our expert did not find that very amusing.
However, you have to keep in mind that we looked at houses between 10 and a maximum of 25 years old and – still for the solid construction sector – the general assumption is a service life of 60 years for prefabricated houses and 80 years for solid single-family homes. The prefabricated house industry has made huge progress over the last 10 years, which is also reflected in their newer houses; so in 10 years from now, these houses probably will not look as worn.
Regards, Bauexperte
D
Doc.Schnaggls11 Aug 2014 15:59Hello,
As a former fan of solid construction houses who has turned 180° in the last two years and is now building a prefabricated house, I would like to add my two cents here.
It is true that many older prefabricated houses look somewhat "finished" or dated today.
Basically, I think you should keep your eyes open everywhere – a house in the "only EUR 99,999 from top of foundation slab" class simply cannot be as good due to the materials used as a higher-quality, and therefore more expensive, building (regardless of whether it is built as solid construction or prefabricated).
Another point not to be overlooked is how many prefabricated houses cannot be recognized as such from the outside at all. The days when you could identify every prefabricated house by the "hidden" (silicone) joints behind the downspouts of the gutter are clearly over for many manufacturers.
Also, one should not forget the individual care and maintenance of the house – in our neighborhood (construction of the first houses started in 1998), there are some houses I would not want to move into. Dirty, neglected, simply run-down – some of these are solid construction houses, others are prefabricated.
It always depends on how one treats their property.
I cannot confirm or deny the slightly shorter lifespan of prefabricated houses, but I have no problem with one of my grandchildren eventually tearing down our house and building a new one with modern technology and equipment, just as we are doing now.
In my opinion, "building for eternity" is no longer appropriate nowadays anyway...
Best regards,
Dirk
As a former fan of solid construction houses who has turned 180° in the last two years and is now building a prefabricated house, I would like to add my two cents here.
It is true that many older prefabricated houses look somewhat "finished" or dated today.
Basically, I think you should keep your eyes open everywhere – a house in the "only EUR 99,999 from top of foundation slab" class simply cannot be as good due to the materials used as a higher-quality, and therefore more expensive, building (regardless of whether it is built as solid construction or prefabricated).
Another point not to be overlooked is how many prefabricated houses cannot be recognized as such from the outside at all. The days when you could identify every prefabricated house by the "hidden" (silicone) joints behind the downspouts of the gutter are clearly over for many manufacturers.
Also, one should not forget the individual care and maintenance of the house – in our neighborhood (construction of the first houses started in 1998), there are some houses I would not want to move into. Dirty, neglected, simply run-down – some of these are solid construction houses, others are prefabricated.
It always depends on how one treats their property.
I cannot confirm or deny the slightly shorter lifespan of prefabricated houses, but I have no problem with one of my grandchildren eventually tearing down our house and building a new one with modern technology and equipment, just as we are doing now.
In my opinion, "building for eternity" is no longer appropriate nowadays anyway...
Best regards,
Dirk
The same concerns occupied us a great deal. One decision has now been made at least once: it will NOT be a prefabricated house. This has nothing to do with a lack of trust in the quality of reputable suppliers, but rather with the reasons already clearly explained by you forum members. These are:
1. Lower resale value. Even if this is influenced by subjective factors, in the end it doesn’t matter why one does not get a reasonable return, only that this is the case. Here in the North, most houses are built as solid or masonry construction, and this is also what is expected.
2. The price of a prefabricated house here really does not differ from that of a solid house. The advantage seen in the South cannot be fully realized here. Schwörerhaus is even significantly more expensive (and openly admits this). One reason why only very few prefabricated houses are built here, and when they are, it is usually those that apparently do not compete in the "upper quality league."
Finally, a new development: it will now be a bungalow.
1. Lower resale value. Even if this is influenced by subjective factors, in the end it doesn’t matter why one does not get a reasonable return, only that this is the case. Here in the North, most houses are built as solid or masonry construction, and this is also what is expected.
2. The price of a prefabricated house here really does not differ from that of a solid house. The advantage seen in the South cannot be fully realized here. Schwörerhaus is even significantly more expensive (and openly admits this). One reason why only very few prefabricated houses are built here, and when they are, it is usually those that apparently do not compete in the "upper quality league."
Finally, a new development: it will now be a bungalow.
B
Bauexperte11 Aug 2014 16:17Hello Dirk,
I don’t want to discourage you or any other user from choosing a prefabricated house. If it came across that way, I apologize!
I agree again with the rest of your post.
Regards, Bauexperte
I don’t want to discourage you or any other user from choosing a prefabricated house. If it came across that way, I apologize!
Doc.Schnaggls schrieb:I absolutely agree with that. However, the property we looked at is definitely not from the low-cost segment.
Basically, I think it’s important to be realistic – a house in the "starting at EUR 99,999 above floor slab level" category simply can’t be as good in terms of materials used as a higher-quality and therefore more expensive building (regardless of whether it’s built as solid construction or a prefab home).
I agree again with the rest of your post.
Regards, Bauexperte
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