Hello everyone, we want to have our bathroom tiled as part of a renovation. It is located on a wooden joist ceiling.
Dry screed was installed here, and the tiler came for an inspection and tested the subfloor (he jumped on it a bit, etc.) and said it was no problem, that tiles can be laid with a decoupling membrane.
I’m not completely sure and mentioned that I could do some additional work before the tiling begins. He said that wouldn’t be necessary.
That’s fine with me for now. But if in the worst case the grout cracks or something similar happens after a year – would a warranty apply and would I have the right to have the tiler come back and fix it?
In my research, I’ve only found conflicting information...
Dry screed was installed here, and the tiler came for an inspection and tested the subfloor (he jumped on it a bit, etc.) and said it was no problem, that tiles can be laid with a decoupling membrane.
I’m not completely sure and mentioned that I could do some additional work before the tiling begins. He said that wouldn’t be necessary.
That’s fine with me for now. But if in the worst case the grout cracks or something similar happens after a year – would a warranty apply and would I have the right to have the tiler come back and fix it?
In my research, I’ve only found conflicting information...
X
xMisterDx11 Nov 2023 00:18Even if you legally have a warranty... if he simply doesn’t show up, you would ultimately have to take it to court, since the tiler has long since received his payment.
And what do you expect from the suggestion to fix it? That’s just one more reason for them to deny your warranty claim after one year, isn’t it?
And what do you expect from the suggestion to fix it? That’s just one more reason for them to deny your warranty claim after one year, isn’t it?
xMisterDx schrieb:
...
And what do you expect to achieve by proposing to make improvements? Isn’t that just another reason for them to refuse warranty coverage after one year?The original poster probably means improving the floor structure, especially regarding deflection, BEFORE starting the tile installation. This should not affect the warranty on subsequent work. Perhaps consider a "black tank" (fully welded bitumen membranes) if it is an older wooden house or timber beam floor.X
xMisterDx11 Nov 2023 01:48To what extent does a bitumen membrane reduce deflection? Can this only be achieved by doubling the thickness in the transverse direction?
I understand that reading forums can make you lose faith in the goodwill of people... but having the client do preliminary work as a basis for the tradesperson? Not a good idea.
From my own experience:
There is no better gift than when the client takes on preparatory work. Whatever problems arise later, we can easily blame on them.
If you install a bitumen membrane, in 125% of all damage cases the tile installer will blame the bitumen membrane and won’t lift a finger 😉
I understand that reading forums can make you lose faith in the goodwill of people... but having the client do preliminary work as a basis for the tradesperson? Not a good idea.
From my own experience:
There is no better gift than when the client takes on preparatory work. Whatever problems arise later, we can easily blame on them.
If you install a bitumen membrane, in 125% of all damage cases the tile installer will blame the bitumen membrane and won’t lift a finger 😉
The bitumen membrane was, of course, not intended for structural improvement but solely to provide reliable waterproofing for moisture-sensitive components (beams, wood flooring, wooden walls?). My brother did this in his timber-framed house, which is over 20 years old, during a bathroom renovation. I found the technical approach convincing.
A structural improvement could be reinforcing the wooden joist structure or adding an additional layer to the floor, depending on what is feasible.
BEFORE starting the work, the tiler must ensure that the floor is "ready for installation" (similar to parquet flooring on screed regarding residual moisture).
The tiler cannot refuse warranty claims based on work carried out by the original poster that took place BEFORE their scope of work.
At least, this is how I understand warranty law in construction (I unfortunately had to deal with this topic due to defects in my house related to a trade; my court date is mid-December :-( ).
However, I could be mistaken; this is only my layperson’s opinion. Furthermore, this should neither replace nor be considered legal advice.
A structural improvement could be reinforcing the wooden joist structure or adding an additional layer to the floor, depending on what is feasible.
BEFORE starting the work, the tiler must ensure that the floor is "ready for installation" (similar to parquet flooring on screed regarding residual moisture).
The tiler cannot refuse warranty claims based on work carried out by the original poster that took place BEFORE their scope of work.
At least, this is how I understand warranty law in construction (I unfortunately had to deal with this topic due to defects in my house related to a trade; my court date is mid-December :-( ).
However, I could be mistaken; this is only my layperson’s opinion. Furthermore, this should neither replace nor be considered legal advice.
As I see it, the discussions keep drifting further away from the original question posed by the asker.
Basically the following:
In bathrooms, especially in buildings with timber construction, the floors must be sealed so that in the event of an emergency no water can seep under the floor structure. Just imagine the damage that would follow if water were to flow down the wall surfaces into the lower levels.
Now, as the asker explained, we have a walking surface made of gypsum fiber panels. The installer’s duty of inspection and care (in this case: the tile setter) specifically relates here to a substructure that differs completely from the usual mineral screed type commonly used.
Such a construction must certainly be properly and adequately checked for possible deflection under point loads.
After all, in the case of damage, proof must be provided regarding which tests were carried out using which methods – and what results were evident at that time.
Later, simply stating “Everything was fine” will hardly serve as a relieving argument for the tile setter in a dispute.
In the simplest case, a longer straightedge can be laid on the unloaded surface of the dry screed panels and then the surface can be loaded by body weight. Deflections of any significant degree are not acceptable.
Since some deflection is inevitable anyway, especially with timber beam ceilings, the manufacturers of the lightweight construction specify a maximum tile size of 30cm x 30cm (12in x 12in) and require a flexible adhesive along with flexible grout.
That covers ceramic floor coverings.
Let us now turn to the preparatory work.
This involves sealing the entire bathroom surface, regardless of the water exposure class, with a suitable liquid waterproofing membrane.
Anyone considering using a bituminous waterproofing product at this point should quietly step aside and observe the ongoing discussion on this topic from a distance.
A bituminous membrane used indoors, especially on gypsum fiber panels (prefabricated screed), is a no-go!
Once the floor area has been coated with the first waterproofing layer, the transitions to rising surfaces are integrated with appropriate sealing tapes and system corner solutions within about 12 hours into the second application of the liquid membrane. This second layer usually has a different color than the first so that any missed spots become immediately visible.
A decoupling mat often serves mainly the contractor, as they like to pass on the costs involved to the worried and thankful client.
It should be mentioned, if only briefly, that decoupling mats are only used for critical screeds.
A floor level based on (naturally suitable) gypsum fiber panels is not a critical substrate!
------------
So, to summarize:
Waterproofing, for example using a brush- or roller-applied liquid waterproofing system together with sealing tapes on vertical wall surfaces, is absolutely necessary in timber frame construction buildings.
A decoupling mat is definitely not one of the necessary materials when new gypsum fiber panels are used as “dry screed.”
Flexible construction auxiliaries such as tile adhesive and grout are also essential purchases.
Tiles must not be larger than 30cm x 30cm (12in x 12in); otherwise, in the case of unavoidable deflections on dry screeds used as timber beam ceilings, there is a significant risk of breakage or cracking under service loads.
------------
I hope these notes have been helpful once again!
Regards, KlaRa
Basically the following:
In bathrooms, especially in buildings with timber construction, the floors must be sealed so that in the event of an emergency no water can seep under the floor structure. Just imagine the damage that would follow if water were to flow down the wall surfaces into the lower levels.
Now, as the asker explained, we have a walking surface made of gypsum fiber panels. The installer’s duty of inspection and care (in this case: the tile setter) specifically relates here to a substructure that differs completely from the usual mineral screed type commonly used.
Such a construction must certainly be properly and adequately checked for possible deflection under point loads.
After all, in the case of damage, proof must be provided regarding which tests were carried out using which methods – and what results were evident at that time.
Later, simply stating “Everything was fine” will hardly serve as a relieving argument for the tile setter in a dispute.
In the simplest case, a longer straightedge can be laid on the unloaded surface of the dry screed panels and then the surface can be loaded by body weight. Deflections of any significant degree are not acceptable.
Since some deflection is inevitable anyway, especially with timber beam ceilings, the manufacturers of the lightweight construction specify a maximum tile size of 30cm x 30cm (12in x 12in) and require a flexible adhesive along with flexible grout.
That covers ceramic floor coverings.
Let us now turn to the preparatory work.
This involves sealing the entire bathroom surface, regardless of the water exposure class, with a suitable liquid waterproofing membrane.
Anyone considering using a bituminous waterproofing product at this point should quietly step aside and observe the ongoing discussion on this topic from a distance.
A bituminous membrane used indoors, especially on gypsum fiber panels (prefabricated screed), is a no-go!
Once the floor area has been coated with the first waterproofing layer, the transitions to rising surfaces are integrated with appropriate sealing tapes and system corner solutions within about 12 hours into the second application of the liquid membrane. This second layer usually has a different color than the first so that any missed spots become immediately visible.
A decoupling mat often serves mainly the contractor, as they like to pass on the costs involved to the worried and thankful client.
It should be mentioned, if only briefly, that decoupling mats are only used for critical screeds.
A floor level based on (naturally suitable) gypsum fiber panels is not a critical substrate!
------------
So, to summarize:
Waterproofing, for example using a brush- or roller-applied liquid waterproofing system together with sealing tapes on vertical wall surfaces, is absolutely necessary in timber frame construction buildings.
A decoupling mat is definitely not one of the necessary materials when new gypsum fiber panels are used as “dry screed.”
Flexible construction auxiliaries such as tile adhesive and grout are also essential purchases.
Tiles must not be larger than 30cm x 30cm (12in x 12in); otherwise, in the case of unavoidable deflections on dry screeds used as timber beam ceilings, there is a significant risk of breakage or cracking under service loads.
------------
I hope these notes have been helpful once again!
Regards, KlaRa
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