ᐅ Heat Pump in a Partially Renovated Older Building – Experiences
Created on: 19 Nov 2022 16:32
S
SaniererNRW123S
SaniererNRW12319 Nov 2022 16:32For everyone considering the purchase and (energy-related) renovation of an existing property...
Two days ago, I commissioned a new heat pump (Pana Monoblock) in an attic apartment of a 50-year-old house – simply connected to the existing pipes.
Property condition: 1960s
Windows: almost all new – supply issues with two small dormer windows
Roof slopes (not many) insulated about 15 years ago with 12cm (5 inches) mineral wool, thermal conductivity class 35
Top floor ceiling insulated about 15 years ago with 12cm (5 inches) mineral wool within the wooden ceiling, plus a new 2x24cm (2x9.5 inches) mineral wool insulation on top of the ceiling
Radiators replaced with the largest possible size (Type 33)
Exterior walls not insulated yet (planned for next year)
The apartment below the attic is normally heated by the resident, comparable to very good basement ceiling insulation
Heat pump pipes not fully insulated yet, this will be done in the next few days
Result: at 0 degrees Celsius (32°F), the heat pump runs continuously without short cycling, with a supply temperature of 35°C (95°F) and return temperature of 30°C (86°F) to maintain an indoor temperature of 21-22°C (70-72°F) (hydraulics not yet fully adjusted as calculated, valves currently set up as delivered).
Conclusion: The heat pump works effectively and efficiently despite the missing exterior wall insulation. The measures implemented so far have been manageable, as many tasks were done as DIY. Both an energy consultant and an engineering office are involved.
It is not always necessary to do everything at once to move away from oil or gas. A high-temperature heat pump is also unnecessary with reasonable effort.
Two days ago, I commissioned a new heat pump (Pana Monoblock) in an attic apartment of a 50-year-old house – simply connected to the existing pipes.
Property condition: 1960s
Windows: almost all new – supply issues with two small dormer windows
Roof slopes (not many) insulated about 15 years ago with 12cm (5 inches) mineral wool, thermal conductivity class 35
Top floor ceiling insulated about 15 years ago with 12cm (5 inches) mineral wool within the wooden ceiling, plus a new 2x24cm (2x9.5 inches) mineral wool insulation on top of the ceiling
Radiators replaced with the largest possible size (Type 33)
Exterior walls not insulated yet (planned for next year)
The apartment below the attic is normally heated by the resident, comparable to very good basement ceiling insulation
Heat pump pipes not fully insulated yet, this will be done in the next few days
Result: at 0 degrees Celsius (32°F), the heat pump runs continuously without short cycling, with a supply temperature of 35°C (95°F) and return temperature of 30°C (86°F) to maintain an indoor temperature of 21-22°C (70-72°F) (hydraulics not yet fully adjusted as calculated, valves currently set up as delivered).
Conclusion: The heat pump works effectively and efficiently despite the missing exterior wall insulation. The measures implemented so far have been manageable, as many tasks were done as DIY. Both an energy consultant and an engineering office are involved.
It is not always necessary to do everything at once to move away from oil or gas. A high-temperature heat pump is also unnecessary with reasonable effort.
Thanks for the interesting case report!
A few questions regarding this:
Wait: only in the attic apartment? So you installed an individual heating system in the attic flat of a multi-family house, and that heating system is a heat pump?
That raises some interesting questions:
How was the apartment heated before? Did it have its own gas heating or was it connected to a central heating system?
Where did you install the outdoor unit? This could only have been done on shared property/common areas and would have required a resolution from the homeowners’ association meeting. Did they simply agree to that?
What was the reason to separate a single apartment from the overall energy concept of the building?
Building and plot condition: 1960s
Almost all windows are new – delivery delays for two small dormer windows
Roof slopes (not many) insulated about 15 years ago with 12 cm mineral wool, thermal conductivity rating 35
Top floor ceiling insulated about 15 years ago with 12 cm mineral wool (in the wooden ceiling) and additionally insulated on top of the ceiling with 2 x 24 cm mineral wool
Radiators as large as possible (Type 33), new
This point presents particular challenges in my opinion. What heat demand is the heat pump sized for?
A) The current state (without insulation)?
B) The future state (with insulation)?
If A: Then it is oversized, which comes with disadvantages (higher investment costs, lower seasonal performance factor than necessary)
If B: What happens if there is a cold snap this winter? Will it then be insufficient?
An impressive figure given the building’s structure!
A few questions regarding this:
SaniererNRW123 schrieb:
The day before yesterday, I started up a new heat pump (Pana Monoblock) in an attic apartment of a 50-year-old house – simply connected to the old pipes.
Wait: only in the attic apartment? So you installed an individual heating system in the attic flat of a multi-family house, and that heating system is a heat pump?
That raises some interesting questions:
How was the apartment heated before? Did it have its own gas heating or was it connected to a central heating system?
Where did you install the outdoor unit? This could only have been done on shared property/common areas and would have required a resolution from the homeowners’ association meeting. Did they simply agree to that?
What was the reason to separate a single apartment from the overall energy concept of the building?
Building and plot condition: 1960s
Almost all windows are new – delivery delays for two small dormer windows
Roof slopes (not many) insulated about 15 years ago with 12 cm mineral wool, thermal conductivity rating 35
Top floor ceiling insulated about 15 years ago with 12 cm mineral wool (in the wooden ceiling) and additionally insulated on top of the ceiling with 2 x 24 cm mineral wool
Radiators as large as possible (Type 33), new
SaniererNRW123 schrieb:
Exterior walls not insulated yet (planned for next year)
This point presents particular challenges in my opinion. What heat demand is the heat pump sized for?
A) The current state (without insulation)?
B) The future state (with insulation)?
If A: Then it is oversized, which comes with disadvantages (higher investment costs, lower seasonal performance factor than necessary)
If B: What happens if there is a cold snap this winter? Will it then be insufficient?
SaniererNRW123 schrieb:
Result: At 0°C (32°F), the heat pump runs continuously without cycling, with a supply temperature of 35°C (95°F) and return temperature of 30°C (86°F) to achieve 21-22°C (70-72°F) indoor temperature (hydraulics not yet adjusted as calculated, valves initially out of the box).
An impressive figure given the building’s structure!
S
SaniererNRW12319 Nov 2022 17:15Proeter schrieb:
Wait: Only in the top-floor apartment? So, in a multi-family building, you installed a separate heating system for the top apartment, and it’s a heat pump? It’s a two-family house. And yes, currently only in the top-floor apartment.
Proeter schrieb:
How was the apartment heated before? Oil heating. That still runs for the ground floor. There were two separate circuits.
Proeter schrieb:
Where did you install the outdoor unit? That can only be on the common property and would have required a resolution from the homeowners’ association meeting. Did they just agree to it? I own everything. So the community gave their approval 😉
Proeter schrieb:
What was the reason for separating a single apartment from the overall energy concept of the building? As I said, it’s a two-family house that is being completely renovated. Maybe I should have mentioned that. For me, the main point was to show that a heat pump can work without a full renovation.
Proeter schrieb:
This point, in my opinion, brings particular challenges. For which heat demand is the heat pump designed?
A) For the current state (without insulation)?
B) For the future state (with insulation)? Unfortunately, the heat pump is oversized but designed for the future state. The heating load was calculated to be a bit over 4,x kW (exact value). The monobloc units are usually rated at 5 kW. But thanks to modulation, it’s perfectly fine. There will be no short cycling.
Proeter schrieb:
If A: Then it is oversized with the associated disadvantages (higher investment costs, lower seasonal performance factor than possible).
If B: What happens if it gets really cold this winter? Will it be insufficient? Since the heating load calculation is always based on the lowest temperatures, any cold days (if they occur) could be bridged using an electric backup heater. From personal experience, I can rule that out. The backup has never switched on up to -15°C (5°F) with the conditions I have.
Proeter schrieb:
Impressive performance for the building structure! That’s what I wanted to demonstrate with this post! Proper insulation of attic and basement plus well-sized windows and heating system can be a great way to get a heat pump heating system at a reasonable cost.
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