ᐅ Bungalow: Only two companies available— which one should I choose?
Created on: 24 Mar 2019 15:37
S
SchildkröteS
Schildkröte24 Mar 2019 15:37Hello,
My partner and I would like to build a bungalow this year if possible. We have already purchased the plot, which is about 620sqm (6,673 sq ft).
We have visited several companies and have now narrowed it down to two options. One is a large company that, according to their statement, builds around 600 houses per year. The other is more like a site manager or project manager who has been building about 30 houses a year for 40 years, also according to his statement.
Our plan:
- Bungalow of 120-125sqm (1,292-1,345 sq ft) with an angled layout for a covered terrace facing southwest
- Standard hip roof
- Air-to-water heat pump heating system
- Double garage with an additional room about 6x9m (20x30 ft) behind it, two garage doors plus one door at the back, access to the utility room
- Underfloor heating
- Chimney for a future fireplace
- Electric roller shutters
- Fixed triple-glazed windows, colored on the outside and white on the inside
- Colored front door
- Rooms: 1 bedroom, 1 child’s room, 1 guest room, 1 utility room, kitchen, living room + dining area, bathroom with walk-in shower, guest bathroom with walk-in shower
- Sliding door from dining area to kitchen, and from hallway to living room
- Large balcony door to the terrace
About the large company:
- Bungalow approximately 125sqm (1,345 sq ft) living space with air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating, KfW 70 standard
- 18cm (7 inch) reinforced concrete slab foundation
- 24cm (9.5 inch) hollow brick exterior walls plus insulation
- Interior walls are simple drywall; a friend will build double drywall and install the sliding door inside the wall
- Triple-glazed windows, colored outside and white inside; electric roller blinds made of PVC; granite window sills—all at additional cost
- Entrance door made of aluminum at extra cost
- Concrete long-life roof tiles, with a 30cm (12 inch) roof overhang for an additional fee
- Colored exterior finish
- Prefabricated concrete double garage 6x9m (20x30 ft) as an unheated garage, reportedly not frost-proof, with door leading to the utility room, walkable
A friend of ours works for this company and might be the drywall installer. We were told that without an immediate soil report from our plot, the price quoted is a kind of fixed price. It is contractually guaranteed that it will not exceed the offer. They also said it’s not very important where the air-to-water heat pump is located — even behind the house is possible, supposedly with no efficiency loss due to distance.
About the smaller company:
- Bungalow approximately 120sqm (1,292 sq ft) living space with air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating, KfW 55 standard
- Foundation type unknown
- 36.5cm (14 inch) exterior walls without insulation
- Interior walls presumably 11cm (4.3 inch) masonry
- Triple-glazed windows, colored outside and white inside; insulated aluminum electric roller blinds; granite window sills
- Colored aluminum entrance door
- Colored clay roof tiles; roof overhang unknown
- Colored exterior plaster finish
- Double garage 6x11m (20x36 ft) as a heated garage, frost-proof, fireproof door to the utility room, walkable, empty conduits for photovoltaic system routed into utility room
- Controlled mechanical ventilation system
With this company, only a rough price was given so far; everything needs to be calculated, including plans from the architect, etc. The project manager oversees everything personally, approves all work, and only after his OK do the companies receive payment. He knows and works with these companies regularly. He says he only offers what he would buy himself and believes in. Many things included in this price are extras with the other company. The supply lines are kept as short as possible to keep costs down. The air-to-water heat pump will be installed at the front of the house.
DIY work is welcome and can be inspected and approved by him later. They advised against installing a fireplace because the chimney sweep costs about €200 plus some tax.
As we understand it, we would need to sign a contract for the project upfront even though the final costs are unclear until after the soil report, architect work, and detailed calculation. However, the price would then be guaranteed 100%, with no further costs expected. He charges 2.5% of the total project value.
Now we are uncertain. One company says 24cm (9.5 inch) exterior walls with insulation are sufficient, and drywall interior walls are fine.
The other company says 36.5cm (14 inch) exterior walls are good, and masonry interior walls are better than drywall.
What is the real difference between an unheated garage and a heated garage? The heated garage would obviously be better for plants that cannot tolerate frost.
What do you think? What should we definitely pay attention to? We would also really like to have brick cladding but this exceeds our budget; it is a possible upgrade for later.
Sorry for the long text.
Regards,
Schildkröte
My partner and I would like to build a bungalow this year if possible. We have already purchased the plot, which is about 620sqm (6,673 sq ft).
We have visited several companies and have now narrowed it down to two options. One is a large company that, according to their statement, builds around 600 houses per year. The other is more like a site manager or project manager who has been building about 30 houses a year for 40 years, also according to his statement.
Our plan:
- Bungalow of 120-125sqm (1,292-1,345 sq ft) with an angled layout for a covered terrace facing southwest
- Standard hip roof
- Air-to-water heat pump heating system
- Double garage with an additional room about 6x9m (20x30 ft) behind it, two garage doors plus one door at the back, access to the utility room
- Underfloor heating
- Chimney for a future fireplace
- Electric roller shutters
- Fixed triple-glazed windows, colored on the outside and white on the inside
- Colored front door
- Rooms: 1 bedroom, 1 child’s room, 1 guest room, 1 utility room, kitchen, living room + dining area, bathroom with walk-in shower, guest bathroom with walk-in shower
- Sliding door from dining area to kitchen, and from hallway to living room
- Large balcony door to the terrace
About the large company:
- Bungalow approximately 125sqm (1,345 sq ft) living space with air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating, KfW 70 standard
- 18cm (7 inch) reinforced concrete slab foundation
- 24cm (9.5 inch) hollow brick exterior walls plus insulation
- Interior walls are simple drywall; a friend will build double drywall and install the sliding door inside the wall
- Triple-glazed windows, colored outside and white inside; electric roller blinds made of PVC; granite window sills—all at additional cost
- Entrance door made of aluminum at extra cost
- Concrete long-life roof tiles, with a 30cm (12 inch) roof overhang for an additional fee
- Colored exterior finish
- Prefabricated concrete double garage 6x9m (20x30 ft) as an unheated garage, reportedly not frost-proof, with door leading to the utility room, walkable
A friend of ours works for this company and might be the drywall installer. We were told that without an immediate soil report from our plot, the price quoted is a kind of fixed price. It is contractually guaranteed that it will not exceed the offer. They also said it’s not very important where the air-to-water heat pump is located — even behind the house is possible, supposedly with no efficiency loss due to distance.
About the smaller company:
- Bungalow approximately 120sqm (1,292 sq ft) living space with air-to-water heat pump and underfloor heating, KfW 55 standard
- Foundation type unknown
- 36.5cm (14 inch) exterior walls without insulation
- Interior walls presumably 11cm (4.3 inch) masonry
- Triple-glazed windows, colored outside and white inside; insulated aluminum electric roller blinds; granite window sills
- Colored aluminum entrance door
- Colored clay roof tiles; roof overhang unknown
- Colored exterior plaster finish
- Double garage 6x11m (20x36 ft) as a heated garage, frost-proof, fireproof door to the utility room, walkable, empty conduits for photovoltaic system routed into utility room
- Controlled mechanical ventilation system
With this company, only a rough price was given so far; everything needs to be calculated, including plans from the architect, etc. The project manager oversees everything personally, approves all work, and only after his OK do the companies receive payment. He knows and works with these companies regularly. He says he only offers what he would buy himself and believes in. Many things included in this price are extras with the other company. The supply lines are kept as short as possible to keep costs down. The air-to-water heat pump will be installed at the front of the house.
DIY work is welcome and can be inspected and approved by him later. They advised against installing a fireplace because the chimney sweep costs about €200 plus some tax.
As we understand it, we would need to sign a contract for the project upfront even though the final costs are unclear until after the soil report, architect work, and detailed calculation. However, the price would then be guaranteed 100%, with no further costs expected. He charges 2.5% of the total project value.
Now we are uncertain. One company says 24cm (9.5 inch) exterior walls with insulation are sufficient, and drywall interior walls are fine.
The other company says 36.5cm (14 inch) exterior walls are good, and masonry interior walls are better than drywall.
What is the real difference between an unheated garage and a heated garage? The heated garage would obviously be better for plants that cannot tolerate frost.
What do you think? What should we definitely pay attention to? We would also really like to have brick cladding but this exceeds our budget; it is a possible upgrade for later.
Sorry for the long text.
Regards,
Schildkröte
The structure from the smaller company is of higher quality. The interior walls are masonry, and the drywall is gypsum board, which makes it easier to hang cabinets later. The monolithic wall construction is also better. You don’t need EPS insulation, nor do you have a hollow exterior wall that can be damaged easily—like if you accidentally hit it with a bike handlebar—and where it’s hard to properly install a mailbox. I wouldn’t care much about the garage, but frost protection is definitely better. You should talk with him about where there is potential for cost savings. For example, concrete roof tiles are just as durable and watertight as clay tiles, but less expensive. Braas Starmatt, for example, also has a nice smooth finish. Can he use Polish windows? A cold garage or a prefabricated garage saves money. What kind of tiles do both offer? How many electrical outlets? Satellite connection? Network wiring included? Outdoor water tap and power outlet? Why an expensive aluminum front door? It could be made of PVC like the windows to save costs. As you can tell, I would choose the smaller builder and discuss my house individually with him, which is how we handled our bungalow. In the end, we were comparing a large company called Team massiv and a craftsman-based company from Fehmarn. After discussing all the details, the Fehmarn builder was only slightly more expensive than Team, which is known for offering lower prices, although Team’s house standard was somewhat simpler. The personal conversation with the owner led us to conclude that going with the smaller builder was the better choice, which we have not regretted. Sure, the bigger company also delivers good houses, but the smaller one can do things the bigger one can’t. For example, we were allowed to choose the subcontractors he used ourselves or buy tiles at Harry’s Tile Market, which obviously greatly expanded our selection at great prices. Karsten
Schildkröte schrieb:
A chimney was discouraged because the cost is around 200€ (approximately $220) for the chimney sweep plus a tax?He means a pressure switch and that should not be an argument against having a chimney. Personally, I think your house is far too small for a chimney. The heat needs some space to circulate.
Schildkröte schrieb:
Now we are unfortunately unsure; one company says 24cm (9.5 inches) exterior walls plus insulation is sufficient, and interior walls as drywall also suffice. Cheap construction! Sorry, that’s where they cut costs wherever possible. You can’t expect quality for the rest of the construction services either.
Considering it will be a small (modest) house, it should at least be done properly so you don’t have issues later. Otherwise, renting would be more convenient.
Nordlys has very good advice for economical house building (bungalow style), but if the second general contractor offers you quality materials, then take that and please don’t downgrade into the cheap segment.
No matter why an aluminum door would be better: if they offer it, take it. Anything is better than plastic.
It also makes sense to calculate costs only after the soil survey. Then your estimate will be realistic instead of a flat-rate bargain including the general contractor’s profit. Otherwise, you can only lose in comparison.
S
Schildkröte25 Mar 2019 11:00Hello,
thank you in advance for your answers.
I get the impression that the smaller company builds more precisely and with higher quality.
First, a soil survey of our plot needs to be done; the general one from the "development" is not very helpful. Only then can we say more. We could arrange this ourselves as well. He recommended a company and said he would decide the exact sampling spots himself. I also think he said that a minimum of 80cm (31 inches) of topsoil needs to be removed, whereas the larger company requires only 50cm (20 inches).
Of course, we could schedule another appointment to discuss further details, but without a soil survey the information isn’t really meaningful. I can’t say what exactly is included with the smaller company since these points were not discussed yet; the focus was just on the whole house and our wishes. He gave us a rough price for a floor plan we liked, but only a very rough estimate. It was about 40,000 (no currency) above our expectations, but he said it could be reduced, for example, by saving on certain items like roof tiles, omitting the controlled ventilation system, front door, etc.
Regarding the aluminum door, some family members said that plastic doors can warp in heat to the point where they might open just by being pulled. Do you have a link to a company that sells these Polish windows?
About the garage, we can ask what it would look like as a standard one. He plans to make the substructure—I’ll call it gravel—larger so that later on a path could be paved around the house.
What unsettles me/us about the smaller company is that you have to sign off on the project before it goes to the architect. What if the costs turn out much higher than expected? Once signed, are we stuck with it or not?
Regarding the larger company, where our friend works, he said that details could still be clarified with the tradespeople on site during construction. For example, only three sockets were included for the kitchen. He said we should talk to the electricians, who would then charge us separately for extras like additional sockets, network, satellite, etc. However, I find it hard to believe this would be cheaper — they could come up with an expensive invoice and we’d have to pay or else have no option, right?
Similarly, he advised us to only use aluminum window sills initially and replace them with granite later during construction, or keep only the aluminum part. But others told us that it’s very loud during rain or hail.
For tile prices, both quoted €15 per square meter (~ft²) at the larger company, but the tile sizes were "prescribed" and the area was 10m² (108 ft²).
Yes, the size should be fairly "normal." I know a colleague with a 160m² (1720 ft²) bungalow for two people who can play hide and seek and doesn’t need more space. My partner visited three bungalows from the larger company with our friend; they were much smaller, the largest being 100m² (1080 ft²).
About the chimney/fireplace, he said the €200 (~$220) are the annual costs regardless of whether it’s used or barely used. With the larger company, a pipe for fresh air is installed in the chimney, otherwise the air might be too thin. That’s why we will have them include it now, as later retrofitting is not easy.
We might get another quote from the larger company this week, since we requested some changes and the first quote didn’t include the garage but did include the facade cladding.
What do you think about the difference between KfW 55 and 70? And about the controlled ventilation system? The larger company says it makes noise inside the house—you can hear other people speaking—and isn’t absolutely necessary except for KfW 55 standards. The smaller company was skeptical as well; they installed it at his daughter’s place and say it’s nice to have but it’s a different experience and not absolutely required.
Regards
Schildkröte
thank you in advance for your answers.
I get the impression that the smaller company builds more precisely and with higher quality.
First, a soil survey of our plot needs to be done; the general one from the "development" is not very helpful. Only then can we say more. We could arrange this ourselves as well. He recommended a company and said he would decide the exact sampling spots himself. I also think he said that a minimum of 80cm (31 inches) of topsoil needs to be removed, whereas the larger company requires only 50cm (20 inches).
Of course, we could schedule another appointment to discuss further details, but without a soil survey the information isn’t really meaningful. I can’t say what exactly is included with the smaller company since these points were not discussed yet; the focus was just on the whole house and our wishes. He gave us a rough price for a floor plan we liked, but only a very rough estimate. It was about 40,000 (no currency) above our expectations, but he said it could be reduced, for example, by saving on certain items like roof tiles, omitting the controlled ventilation system, front door, etc.
Regarding the aluminum door, some family members said that plastic doors can warp in heat to the point where they might open just by being pulled. Do you have a link to a company that sells these Polish windows?
About the garage, we can ask what it would look like as a standard one. He plans to make the substructure—I’ll call it gravel—larger so that later on a path could be paved around the house.
What unsettles me/us about the smaller company is that you have to sign off on the project before it goes to the architect. What if the costs turn out much higher than expected? Once signed, are we stuck with it or not?
Regarding the larger company, where our friend works, he said that details could still be clarified with the tradespeople on site during construction. For example, only three sockets were included for the kitchen. He said we should talk to the electricians, who would then charge us separately for extras like additional sockets, network, satellite, etc. However, I find it hard to believe this would be cheaper — they could come up with an expensive invoice and we’d have to pay or else have no option, right?
Similarly, he advised us to only use aluminum window sills initially and replace them with granite later during construction, or keep only the aluminum part. But others told us that it’s very loud during rain or hail.
For tile prices, both quoted €15 per square meter (~ft²) at the larger company, but the tile sizes were "prescribed" and the area was 10m² (108 ft²).
Yes, the size should be fairly "normal." I know a colleague with a 160m² (1720 ft²) bungalow for two people who can play hide and seek and doesn’t need more space. My partner visited three bungalows from the larger company with our friend; they were much smaller, the largest being 100m² (1080 ft²).
About the chimney/fireplace, he said the €200 (~$220) are the annual costs regardless of whether it’s used or barely used. With the larger company, a pipe for fresh air is installed in the chimney, otherwise the air might be too thin. That’s why we will have them include it now, as later retrofitting is not easy.
We might get another quote from the larger company this week, since we requested some changes and the first quote didn’t include the garage but did include the facade cladding.
What do you think about the difference between KfW 55 and 70? And about the controlled ventilation system? The larger company says it makes noise inside the house—you can hear other people speaking—and isn’t absolutely necessary except for KfW 55 standards. The smaller company was skeptical as well; they installed it at his daughter’s place and say it’s nice to have but it’s a different experience and not absolutely required.
Regards
Schildkröte
Regarding your questions:
Polish windows: The builder already knows who will supply them. Just ask.
Chimney: That’s nonsense. A waste of money. The house is already KfW 70 energy standard warm, it will never be used. Want to bet? Or you play naked tag around the coffee table.
KfW 70 is more than enough. KfW 55 might cost about 5000 euros more and saves 35 euros per year. You won’t live long enough for that to pay off.
Mechanical ventilation with heat recovery: We don’t have it and that’s fine. The system of regulating air through windows and an exhaust fan (Helios brand) in the bathroom is sufficient here.
Plastic front door also closes well in the heat. Ours does, although it’s from Poland. We had a warm summer in 2018.
Fear of signing: talk it over. Tell him what is possible, and then work it out together.
Aluminum window sills noisy in rain… yes, maybe. But bungalows have 50cm (20 inches) roof overhangs, so rain passes by the window sills here.
You can’t get tiles for 15 euros. At least not nice ones. 25 euros is the minimum.
Karsten
Polish windows: The builder already knows who will supply them. Just ask.
Chimney: That’s nonsense. A waste of money. The house is already KfW 70 energy standard warm, it will never be used. Want to bet? Or you play naked tag around the coffee table.
KfW 70 is more than enough. KfW 55 might cost about 5000 euros more and saves 35 euros per year. You won’t live long enough for that to pay off.
Mechanical ventilation with heat recovery: We don’t have it and that’s fine. The system of regulating air through windows and an exhaust fan (Helios brand) in the bathroom is sufficient here.
Plastic front door also closes well in the heat. Ours does, although it’s from Poland. We had a warm summer in 2018.
Fear of signing: talk it over. Tell him what is possible, and then work it out together.
Aluminum window sills noisy in rain… yes, maybe. But bungalows have 50cm (20 inches) roof overhangs, so rain passes by the window sills here.
You can’t get tiles for 15 euros. At least not nice ones. 25 euros is the minimum.
Karsten
M
Mottenhausen25 Mar 2019 15:00ypg schrieb:
Cheap construction! Sorry, they’re cutting corners wherever possible. You can’t expect anything for the rest of the scope of work either.Sorry, you really can’t make such a general statement. A 24cm (10 inch) hollow brick plus 12cm (5 inch) external wall insulation is definitely not cheaper than a 36cm (14 inch) solid wall construction (“cheap construction” is clearly incorrect). A multi-layer wall with the same brick and total wall thickness offers better thermal insulation, so it is functionally superior.
I can no longer accept the arguments against external wall insulation systems (EWIS). If someone can’t figure out how to mount a mailbox on it, they just need to hire a professional who knows how. And leaning a bicycle against it doesn’t leave holes either. If a bike hits a solid wall hard enough, it won’t go without some marks there either. But this debate has been had here a thousand times. It’s always funny with our house: “Why are you building an efficiency standard 55 house with external insulation? Nobody needs that.” Then, regarding the floor plan: “The open spaces, the rooms... you’ll never be able to heat that properly... think about the heating costs.” After both arguments have been made, I just repeat them and answer: “Well, do you see the contradiction?”
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