Hello everyone,
I hope I’m posting my questions in the right place.
The first question is whether we simply have to accept the increased costs for the foundation slab without consultation. At first, we were told that 40 cm (16 inches) of excavation would be needed. After the soil report, it was 70 cm (28 inches), and during excavation, it turned out to be 92 cm (36 inches)... all without prior notice. The whole foundation slab is now about 9,000 euros more expensive than initially quoted. What bothers us is that we were presented with a fait accompli.
Then there is the telecommunications provider. The road will have to be reopened for this connection, and of course, we are expected to pay for that as well. The basic connection also costs around 700 euros. The civil engineer who opens the road for the telecom provider invoices separately, and we don’t understand why all these tasks have to be done multiple times instead of being better coordinated.
The surveyor or the architect—we’re not quite sure—also made a mistake. Our house was planned 37 cm (14.5 inches) too low and now has to be set higher. This means we’ll have to bring in more soil in the garden to maintain the planned ground-level access to the terrace. Again, more costs that were not anticipated. Do we just have to accept this as well?
We checked with our local utilities about what applications are required to connect a new build to the supply network. They sent us applications for electricity and water, costing nearly 7,000 euros. Then, last week, we heard from several neighbors (in a complete new development) that the drainage work must be done by a subsidiary of the utilities. One neighboring property had to pay an extra 11,000 euros on top of the house connections for this—and the invoice came from the utilities, not the subsidiary. We feel quite taken advantage of. For us, this means about 8,500 euros more on top.
Do we just have to accept all of this, or what can we do? At the moment, we’re quite desperate, and the cost spiral keeps turning. We are not in a position to judge whether all this is justified or what’s still coming. We thought we had planned well. We even consulted various advisors and friends with building experience... but right now, we really feel lost, and more financing is looming.
Best regards
I hope I’m posting my questions in the right place.
The first question is whether we simply have to accept the increased costs for the foundation slab without consultation. At first, we were told that 40 cm (16 inches) of excavation would be needed. After the soil report, it was 70 cm (28 inches), and during excavation, it turned out to be 92 cm (36 inches)... all without prior notice. The whole foundation slab is now about 9,000 euros more expensive than initially quoted. What bothers us is that we were presented with a fait accompli.
Then there is the telecommunications provider. The road will have to be reopened for this connection, and of course, we are expected to pay for that as well. The basic connection also costs around 700 euros. The civil engineer who opens the road for the telecom provider invoices separately, and we don’t understand why all these tasks have to be done multiple times instead of being better coordinated.
The surveyor or the architect—we’re not quite sure—also made a mistake. Our house was planned 37 cm (14.5 inches) too low and now has to be set higher. This means we’ll have to bring in more soil in the garden to maintain the planned ground-level access to the terrace. Again, more costs that were not anticipated. Do we just have to accept this as well?
We checked with our local utilities about what applications are required to connect a new build to the supply network. They sent us applications for electricity and water, costing nearly 7,000 euros. Then, last week, we heard from several neighbors (in a complete new development) that the drainage work must be done by a subsidiary of the utilities. One neighboring property had to pay an extra 11,000 euros on top of the house connections for this—and the invoice came from the utilities, not the subsidiary. We feel quite taken advantage of. For us, this means about 8,500 euros more on top.
Do we just have to accept all of this, or what can we do? At the moment, we’re quite desperate, and the cost spiral keeps turning. We are not in a position to judge whether all this is justified or what’s still coming. We thought we had planned well. We even consulted various advisors and friends with building experience... but right now, we really feel lost, and more financing is looming.
Best regards
Payday schrieb:
- Excavation and soil replacement are known to always come with significant costs. You also know that it can really add up. But 9,000€ extra for 90cm (35 inches) depth? Bungalow? For a 10x10 m (33x33 ft) area, it should be significantly cheaper. We are at about 120cm (47 inches) soil replacement with around 28,000 euros, well, there are a few more cubic meters due to the building footprint.
Payday schrieb:
- Does the plot need to be filled? Use the excavated soil for that. It saves multiple costs. There is no need to transport it away, no disposal costs, and you need less (or no) soil brought in. Not every soil is suitable for this; if clay is involved, better to get rid of it quickly.
Payday schrieb:
Oh yes: welcome to building and the unplanned expenses. If the connection fees are already shocking you, I wonder how well you actually prepared. Yes, this won’t be the last setback.
MarcWen schrieb:
We are at 120cm (47 inches) soil replacement costing around 28,000 euros, well, there are a few more cubic meters due to the building footprint. With a basement, transport, and landfill fees included? We had 110cm (43 inches) and ended up with an additional cost of 5,500 euros. We spread the soil across the property; later, the landscaper took some of it to neighbors who needed more.
Not every soil is suitable for this. Once clay is involved, it should be removed quickly. With 28,000 euros just for a bit of soil excavation, I would seriously consider whether it’s worth putting the small portion of clay back and just adding 10–15cm (4–6 inches) of good soil on top. That easily saves 15,000–20,000 euros of your 28,000 euros and has no real downsides.
In the end, it’s a personal decision, but for 20,000 euros, you could do the entire garden instead of just adding some new soil.
P
Peanuts7410 Jun 2016 06:04Payday schrieb:
That is, to put it mildly, nonsense. You hire professionals for a lot of money. Their sole job is to take the blame if anything goes wrong. If I sign off on the work’s correctness, I might as well do the layout myself! You pay the surveyor 600€ (about $660) for 30 minutes of measuring not so they do the work, but because their head is on the line if they mess it up. The signature is only there to confirm that the work has been done and an invoice can be issued. The signature NEVER releases the contractor from their duty of care and liability. This is simply how it is. The client is a layperson and cannot verify the accuracy. None of these trades will ever get away with that in court.
To the original poster:
- Excavation/replacement of soil is always the same story when it comes to costs. You know it can get expensive. But 9000€ (about $9,900) extra for 90cm (35 inches) deep? A bungalow? At 10x10 meters (33x33 feet), it should be much cheaper. You only see the real depth once you start digging. I consider soil testing a waste of money. The 500-1000€ (about $550-$1,100) could have been put directly into the excavation itself (everyone has a different opinion on this...).
- Need to fill the plot? Use the excavated soil for that. It saves you in multiple ways. No need to haul it away, so no disposal costs, and you reduce or eliminate the need to bring in more soil. Also, consider whether it makes sense to raise the whole plot by 34cm (13 inches) or instead to have the terrace/entrance platform lowered by one or two steps.
- Who is responsible for the planning error regarding height? No one can say without more information.
- Utility connections cost money. That’s no secret and should have been checked beforehand. If you coordinate well, telecom companies can include their cables with the other utilities. It worked perfectly for us. I ordered water connections on Monday, informed the gas/electricity/fiber optic providers on Tuesday, and asked telecom to install their cable on Monday or Tuesday. By Tuesday afternoon, the cable was in place. The planner at the water authority knows the planner at the utility company (I know him too, since I trained with him at the utility company ^^) and they coordinated. The water company opened the trench, then the utility company closed it. The excavation at the construction access remained open for 1-2 weeks until all connections were complete. Everything works...
Oh yes: welcome to building and unexpected costs. If the connection fees shock you already, I wonder how well you actually prepared.I never said I agree with this opinion!
Regarding backfilling, I believe it is OFTEN, though not always, a bad idea to keep and reuse the excavated soil. Very often the excavated soil cannot be properly compacted for backfilling.
That’s why general advice like “just backfill with the excavated soil to save money” should be avoided. If the original poster ends up having to redo their terrace three times over the next 10 years because it keeps settling, they certainly won’t be happy having saved a few thousand euros upfront only to spend more and constantly have a construction site in their garden later!
P
Peanuts7410 Jun 2016 06:19Do you mean 120m³ (cubic meters) or 120 cm (depth)? Because then it would be close to 150m³ (cubic meters).
Anyway, if I calculate with 150m³ (cubic meters) at a high estimate of 20€/m³ (cubic yards) for excavation and disposal including landfill fees, that comes to 3000€.
150m³ (cubic meters) of gravel costs about 6000€ plus, let’s say, 2 man-days (high estimate) for compaction. That brings the total to around 10,000€. If you are paying nearly 30,000€ for this, either there is something wrong with the soil (rock, contaminated soil??) or you are being massively overcharged.
One more note about backfilling: I recently had to dig a hole about 1m (3 feet) deep, which I then filled with the excavated soil. Even though I repeatedly compacted the soil in between, the ground at that spot had already settled by about 10 cm (4 inches) after roughly 2 months.
@PD, do you really want to generally recommend using the excavated soil for backfilling? I seriously find that hard to believe! I would rather talk to a trusted civil engineer or groundworker who has more experience, not someone just driven by the money.
Anyway, if I calculate with 150m³ (cubic meters) at a high estimate of 20€/m³ (cubic yards) for excavation and disposal including landfill fees, that comes to 3000€.
150m³ (cubic meters) of gravel costs about 6000€ plus, let’s say, 2 man-days (high estimate) for compaction. That brings the total to around 10,000€. If you are paying nearly 30,000€ for this, either there is something wrong with the soil (rock, contaminated soil??) or you are being massively overcharged.
One more note about backfilling: I recently had to dig a hole about 1m (3 feet) deep, which I then filled with the excavated soil. Even though I repeatedly compacted the soil in between, the ground at that spot had already settled by about 10 cm (4 inches) after roughly 2 months.
@PD, do you really want to generally recommend using the excavated soil for backfilling? I seriously find that hard to believe! I would rather talk to a trusted civil engineer or groundworker who has more experience, not someone just driven by the money.
Bommeraner schrieb:
Then there’s the telecom company. They will have to reopen the street for their connection, and of course, we are supposed to pay for that again. The basic connection costs about 700 Euro. The civil contractor who opens the street for the telecom also sends a bill, but we just don’t understand why all of this has to be done multiple times and why it can’t be better coordinated.
The surveyor or the architect—we’re not exactly sure—which also made a mistake measuring. Our house was planned 37cm (15 inches) too low, so it has to be “raised”... which means we’ll have to add more soil in the garden to keep the planned level ground with the terrace. Again, costs that were not planned for beforehand. Do we just have to accept that?Yes – these ground and civil engineering works: I’ve been surprised again and again. Slate rocks not mentioned in any report. Bedrock, etc. And the connection costs were extremely high (meaning: planned like that). Some neighbors building with basements had it even worse (more than 40,000 Euros extra for ground works in the “do we have to blast or break up?” area (heavy machinery was hammering for 1.5 weeks)). The poor people were hit even harder afterward: the inspection chamber was placed incorrectly three times and had to be redone each time: another +15,000 Euros. That’s how even wealthy people become poor.
At least the municipal utility company eventually coordinated the telecom installation.
I was able to offset some costs: excavation material went to a construction company next door – saved me several thousand Euros and only required a bit of negotiation with the site manager nearby plus one day with a truck for 600 Euro.
Well, as a building expert wrote about the costs here… that’s all true. For me, it was also the #1 pain point. More pain points followed, and in the end, everything was 32,000 Euro more expensive than planned. I was very frustrated at the time, but I survived, the house stands, and we’re still living in it.
The planning error regarding height: extremely annoying. I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t give much advice here. Do you have your planning requests documented in writing? That would be good, so you could identify who is responsible, and that person would have to admit their mistake. I think that will be difficult. However, *suitable* (LAGA-0!) fill material is relatively inexpensive or often almost free. Besides, a good layer of fill soil below the topsoil is almost never a mistake but rather the opposite. I don’t think that’s your problematic expense item.
Please don’t drive yourselves crazy now. Construction is underway – and it can be incredibly nerve-wracking at times. Take care of your nerves. Compensate where you can. I had to do that extensively myself and am happy to offer advice in individual cases via PM.
Best regards
Thorsten
Peanuts74 schrieb:
That’s why general advice like “just backfill with the excavated soil, it saves money” shouldn’t be given here. If the original poster ends up having to redo the terrace three times over the next 10 years because it keeps settling, they surely won’t be happy about having saved a few thousand euros upfront, only to spend it later bit by bit while constantly dealing with a construction site in the garden!Sorry, but who actually does this? First, you’re told to spend a fortune on soil, and then you start cutting corners? All paved areas should—if you want to do it properly—be backfilled with 80cm (31.5 inches) of frost-resistant gravel! The excavated soil from the house can be spread around the garden for the lawn, etc. There are no special requirements for that, except of course removing any disruptive stones. To save 10,000 euros, spending a couple of afternoons raking out stones is definitely worth it.
Of course, you should talk to your excavator, but keep in mind they’re not impartial—they want to make money. They’ll always tell you that other soils are better (which is true, as they’re sieved and stone-free). But is it worth it? And above all, do you have the 10,000 euros or more to invest? If the material is genuinely rubbish, it will need to be replaced eventually, but not because of two or three bits of clay or some stones.
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