H
Hausbau1816 Oct 2017 15:53Hello everyone,
As I mentioned in another post, we are considering building a house (1.5 floors plus basement; solid construction; plot of land available).
We have already had initial discussions with a local developer. For various reasons, we are unfortunately not really "enthusiastic" about this option (the contact person was very pushy, the supposedly detailed cost breakdown was a bad joke, etc.).
Now, some friends have advised us to build with an independent architect instead of a developer to save costs. The idea is that the architect would also take on construction supervision (including a construction log, etc.) and ideally coordinate the different trades.
Regardless of the approach, we want to contribute some work ourselves!
We have two main concerns. First, we were told that an architect can only provide an overall price estimate, whereas a developer offers a price guarantee (yes, of course, additional costs will arise here and there in both cases). Second, we cannot imagine that an architect who also takes on construction supervision and coordination would actually be cheaper than a developer.
Can you confirm or contradict this information we have? Do you have any general insights on this topic? Managing coordination ourselves would be incredibly difficult due to professional and personal reasons. Should this responsibility be handled by one knowledgeable person rather than multiple people?
Among our friends, everyone has built with developers, so we have no direct comparison.
A “let’s just give it a try” approach is out of the question for us given the sums involved. We also need a concrete figure before approaching the bank.
I hope you can provide some helpful advice here. Maybe there is one or more (former) homebuilders who have already built (or are building) with an independent architect.
Best regards,
Hausbau18
As I mentioned in another post, we are considering building a house (1.5 floors plus basement; solid construction; plot of land available).
We have already had initial discussions with a local developer. For various reasons, we are unfortunately not really "enthusiastic" about this option (the contact person was very pushy, the supposedly detailed cost breakdown was a bad joke, etc.).
Now, some friends have advised us to build with an independent architect instead of a developer to save costs. The idea is that the architect would also take on construction supervision (including a construction log, etc.) and ideally coordinate the different trades.
Regardless of the approach, we want to contribute some work ourselves!
We have two main concerns. First, we were told that an architect can only provide an overall price estimate, whereas a developer offers a price guarantee (yes, of course, additional costs will arise here and there in both cases). Second, we cannot imagine that an architect who also takes on construction supervision and coordination would actually be cheaper than a developer.
Can you confirm or contradict this information we have? Do you have any general insights on this topic? Managing coordination ourselves would be incredibly difficult due to professional and personal reasons. Should this responsibility be handled by one knowledgeable person rather than multiple people?
Among our friends, everyone has built with developers, so we have no direct comparison.
A “let’s just give it a try” approach is out of the question for us given the sums involved. We also need a concrete figure before approaching the bank.
I hope you can provide some helpful advice here. Maybe there is one or more (former) homebuilders who have already built (or are building) with an independent architect.
Best regards,
Hausbau18
B
Bieber081516 Oct 2017 16:16Developer: Builds a house on their own land and sells both the land and the house to the client in a single transaction (purchase contract). Fixed price.
General contractor/main contractor (GC): Builds a house on the client’s land under a construction contract. The client legally acts as the builder and is responsible for managing more or fewer additional tasks. The construction contract has a fixed price, but there are variable extra items whose costs can often only be estimated in advance (e.g., earthworks).
Architect: Custom design and individual contracting. Similar to a GC, but instead of one large contract, there are many smaller contracts.
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Those who want an absolute price guarantee (and possibly schedule reliability) are well served by the developer.
Those who want a standard house without many changes are well served by the developer and the GC.
Those who want to contribute their own work (beyond wall and floor finishes) should avoid the developer.
Those who want to realize an individual design and special solutions (at a fair price) should find the right architect and build with individual contracts.
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Those without their own land must buy from a developer. Those who own their land eliminate the developer from their vocabulary and choose between a GC and an architect with individual contracting (there are also “construction supervisors,” but that is essentially the same).
General contractor/main contractor (GC): Builds a house on the client’s land under a construction contract. The client legally acts as the builder and is responsible for managing more or fewer additional tasks. The construction contract has a fixed price, but there are variable extra items whose costs can often only be estimated in advance (e.g., earthworks).
Architect: Custom design and individual contracting. Similar to a GC, but instead of one large contract, there are many smaller contracts.
--
Those who want an absolute price guarantee (and possibly schedule reliability) are well served by the developer.
Those who want a standard house without many changes are well served by the developer and the GC.
Those who want to contribute their own work (beyond wall and floor finishes) should avoid the developer.
Those who want to realize an individual design and special solutions (at a fair price) should find the right architect and build with individual contracts.
--
Those without their own land must buy from a developer. Those who own their land eliminate the developer from their vocabulary and choose between a GC and an architect with individual contracting (there are also “construction supervisors,” but that is essentially the same).
The conclusions you have drawn about architects are all correct. If you hire an architect for all planning phases and according to regulations, for a house costing around €300,000, you can expect a gross fee of about €45,000. Even when building with an architect, you cannot avoid a significant amount of coordination work. It’s not as if you simply tell them your wishes and they just do it. I want to set that straight for you.
You also won’t get a fixed price guarantee, even if you already have nearly all the quotes.
Furthermore, nowadays architects are already struggling to negotiate reasonable prices with tradespeople.
You also won’t get a fixed price guarantee, even if you already have nearly all the quotes.
Furthermore, nowadays architects are already struggling to negotiate reasonable prices with tradespeople.
S
stefanc8416 Oct 2017 23:54I can only agree with Bieber: If you want to have a say in your house, an architect is probably the better option.
There are definitely many general contractors (GCs) who build based on independent plans, and that’s not the problem. However, from my own experience, it can get difficult if you do a lot of research yourself—whether here in the forum or elsewhere. At some point, you develop ideas about how the house should be built technically. That’s when you’re likely to disagree with the GC, because they want to build it the way they always have, not how something is recommended in a forum.
An architect also has the advantage of being on your side—at least more so than a GC.
For me, another huge advantage of an architect is transparency. I dislike being presented with arbitrary lump sums. I want to know exactly what I’m getting and for how much money, and then decide for myself what things are worth to me. If I don’t want something or prefer to get it from another company, I want the full price deducted, not just a small fraction of it.
But everyone thinks about that differently. Some people say, “I don’t want details, just do it as long as the total price fits.”
“Basically,” an architect is the more expensive option in my opinion. A GC COULD do many things cheaper. But during a building boom, everyone charges what they can. I’ve heard from several people that GCs pocket around €60,000 (about $65,000) profit per project. That really puts an architect’s fees into perspective.
By the way, we are building with a GC. So ultimately, I only know this side—which might be why I see more disadvantages there. I don’t know the downsides of working with an architect from personal experience.
I would have liked to build with an architect. But the few I found were not likable to me. Most were overwhelmed with projects…
There are definitely many general contractors (GCs) who build based on independent plans, and that’s not the problem. However, from my own experience, it can get difficult if you do a lot of research yourself—whether here in the forum or elsewhere. At some point, you develop ideas about how the house should be built technically. That’s when you’re likely to disagree with the GC, because they want to build it the way they always have, not how something is recommended in a forum.
An architect also has the advantage of being on your side—at least more so than a GC.
For me, another huge advantage of an architect is transparency. I dislike being presented with arbitrary lump sums. I want to know exactly what I’m getting and for how much money, and then decide for myself what things are worth to me. If I don’t want something or prefer to get it from another company, I want the full price deducted, not just a small fraction of it.
But everyone thinks about that differently. Some people say, “I don’t want details, just do it as long as the total price fits.”
“Basically,” an architect is the more expensive option in my opinion. A GC COULD do many things cheaper. But during a building boom, everyone charges what they can. I’ve heard from several people that GCs pocket around €60,000 (about $65,000) profit per project. That really puts an architect’s fees into perspective.
By the way, we are building with a GC. So ultimately, I only know this side—which might be why I see more disadvantages there. I don’t know the downsides of working with an architect from personal experience.
I would have liked to build with an architect. But the few I found were not likable to me. Most were overwhelmed with projects…
Hello,
In 2016, we built our dream house together with an architect. However, we only had him handle the planning and communication with the authorities (building permit / planning permission). Obtaining quotes, negotiating, awarding contracts, coordinating, and so on were all done by us. Since he lived in a neighboring town, he would stop by every few days to check on the work and was always available for questions. This saved us a lot of money, but it also meant a lot of work for us.
Before deciding on the architect, we initially wanted to hire a general contractor (GC). We gathered offers from Massa Haus, Hanse Haus, Allkauf Haus, Fingerhaus, and many others. We even chose a GC, went through preliminary selections, and eventually had a contract ready. However, the extra costs for the smallest changes were really huge.
Example: The surcharge for swapping a double door for a sliding door was 3,000 euros.
A friend of ours laughed about this. His company sold that exact door for less than 1,800 euros. The double door was 900 euros with him.
So, 1,800 euros for the door + 1,200 euros profit for the GC + 900 euros for the removed double door = 3,900 euros o.O
This pattern repeated itself across all trades.
1% more roof pitch = 500 euros
Electric shutters = 5,000 euros
...
Many prices couldn’t even be given upfront; we were told we’d find out about them later during the selections (and that’s when the real shock would come).
In the end, we threw the contract away and did everything ourselves. Everything ran smoothly. We moved in after 9 months.
Our neighbors built with a GC and had significant trouble at times, over minor issues like shutter boxes and more frustrating problems like scratched windows and doors.
In the end, it’s a matter of luck. The important question is whether you want to be actively involved in the construction or prefer to simply watch and leave everything to others. Get quotes from several GCs, compare them, and see what surcharges they charge for changes during planning. You don’t need financing for this yet, and it will help you figure out what you really want.
Best regards,
Michael
In 2016, we built our dream house together with an architect. However, we only had him handle the planning and communication with the authorities (building permit / planning permission). Obtaining quotes, negotiating, awarding contracts, coordinating, and so on were all done by us. Since he lived in a neighboring town, he would stop by every few days to check on the work and was always available for questions. This saved us a lot of money, but it also meant a lot of work for us.
Before deciding on the architect, we initially wanted to hire a general contractor (GC). We gathered offers from Massa Haus, Hanse Haus, Allkauf Haus, Fingerhaus, and many others. We even chose a GC, went through preliminary selections, and eventually had a contract ready. However, the extra costs for the smallest changes were really huge.
Example: The surcharge for swapping a double door for a sliding door was 3,000 euros.
A friend of ours laughed about this. His company sold that exact door for less than 1,800 euros. The double door was 900 euros with him.
So, 1,800 euros for the door + 1,200 euros profit for the GC + 900 euros for the removed double door = 3,900 euros o.O
This pattern repeated itself across all trades.
1% more roof pitch = 500 euros
Electric shutters = 5,000 euros
...
Many prices couldn’t even be given upfront; we were told we’d find out about them later during the selections (and that’s when the real shock would come).
In the end, we threw the contract away and did everything ourselves. Everything ran smoothly. We moved in after 9 months.
Our neighbors built with a GC and had significant trouble at times, over minor issues like shutter boxes and more frustrating problems like scratched windows and doors.
In the end, it’s a matter of luck. The important question is whether you want to be actively involved in the construction or prefer to simply watch and leave everything to others. Get quotes from several GCs, compare them, and see what surcharges they charge for changes during planning. You don’t need financing for this yet, and it will help you figure out what you really want.
Best regards,
Michael
Invi85 schrieb:
Hello,
in 2016, we built our dream home together with an architect. However, we only had him handle the design and the communication with the authorities. Getting quotes, negotiating, awarding contracts, coordinating, etc. was all done by us. Since he lived in the neighboring town, he checked the work every few days and was always available for questions. This saved us a lot of money, but it also meant a lot of work for us…
Before deciding on the architect, we actually wanted to hire a general contractor (GC). We requested offers from Massa Haus, Hanse Haus, Allkauf Haus, FingerHaus, and many others. We decided on a GC, went through preliminary selection, and eventually had a contract, but the extra charges for even the smallest changes were really huge.
Example: The surcharge to change a double door to a sliding door was 3,000 euros.
A friend of ours found this hilarious. His company sells exactly that door for less than 1,800 euros. The double door could be had from him for 900 euros.
So 1,800 euros for the door + 1,200 euros profit for the GC + 900 euros for the double door that was removed = 3,900 euros.
This kind of markup applied to all trades later on.
1% steeper roof pitch = 500 euros
Electric roller shutters = 5,000 euros
...
Many prices weren’t disclosed to us at all; we were told we would learn them later during the selection process (and that’s when the real shock would come).
In the end, we threw the contract away and did everything ourselves. Everything went smoothly. We moved in after 9 months.
Our neighbors built with a GC and had significant problems with minor issues like roller shutter boxes, but also frustrating problems like scratched windows and doors.
Ultimately, it’s a matter of luck. The important question is whether you want to be involved in the build or just watch and let others handle it. Get quotes from several GCs, compare them, check how much they charge for changes during the planning phase. You don’t need financing for that yet, and it might help you figure out what you really want.
Regards,
Michael We are building just like you, except we have someone who obtains the quotes and supervises the construction (not the architect, but the person who arranged the architect for us).
For exactly the reason mentioned above, we also decided against a GC because we didn’t want to be taken advantage of. The GCs’ cost calculations are really outrageous. Just for the inspection chambers, we saw a markup of almost 2,000 euros (about 2,000 euros) per chamber. Total rip-off.
However, you then need to think about many things yourself, such as electrical planning or window placement. These are then compared with the existing offer and the quote is adjusted accordingly.