ᐅ Photovoltaic Systems & Energy Storage *General Discussion Thread*
Created on: 27 Jan 2015 15:13
H
Häuslebau3r
Hello everyone,
Since I have come across a few posts in other threads here in the forum regarding energy storage systems for photovoltaic installations and I am personally very interested in the topic, I found some more information during my research online.
Until now, I really believed that due to the currently low electricity prices compared to battery storage systems, these are not cost-effective.
The following study mainly refers to theoretical data and calculations. Nevertheless, it clearly shows how the situation can vary under different conditions.
On page 13, you will find a table with the various systems considered.
Under section 3.4.3
- it is mentioned, for example, that a photovoltaic system with storage has a feed-in power limit set at 60%.
Under section 4.2
- the system sizing is well compared.
Under section 4.5.1
- different financing examples are listed again, also taking into account KfW funding, along with various electricity price increases.
The best storage system was the Senec Home G2. Senec was able to offer such a competitive price due to the affordable replacement battery and inverter. Has anyone already installed one or informed themselves about it, or can share more general information on the topic?
Hopefully, this information is helpful to others as well.
Best regards,
Andi
Since I have come across a few posts in other threads here in the forum regarding energy storage systems for photovoltaic installations and I am personally very interested in the topic, I found some more information during my research online.
Until now, I really believed that due to the currently low electricity prices compared to battery storage systems, these are not cost-effective.
The following study mainly refers to theoretical data and calculations. Nevertheless, it clearly shows how the situation can vary under different conditions.
On page 13, you will find a table with the various systems considered.
Under section 3.4.3
- it is mentioned, for example, that a photovoltaic system with storage has a feed-in power limit set at 60%.
Under section 4.2
- the system sizing is well compared.
Under section 4.5.1
- different financing examples are listed again, also taking into account KfW funding, along with various electricity price increases.
The best storage system was the Senec Home G2. Senec was able to offer such a competitive price due to the affordable replacement battery and inverter. Has anyone already installed one or informed themselves about it, or can share more general information on the topic?
Hopefully, this information is helpful to others as well.
Best regards,
Andi
I find the claim of a 20-year lifespan misleading. My electric car has a lithium-ion battery, which generally lasts a long time, but its capacity decreases over time. However, replacement is free once the capacity drops to 75%. For other owners of this model, this usually happened after about 4 to 5 years.
Is the provider’s battery storage system, which guarantees 20 years, also regularly replaced free of charge? Or is it only the lifespan that is guaranteed, not the storage capacity?
When making a calculation decision, storage losses should also be taken into account. About 20–30% of the electricity fed in is lost when using storage. These figures come from users who complain in specialized forums that the storage system (for example: Nedap Power Router) does not deliver the expected results. Of course, this information is not included in the promotional brochures.
Therefore, it is important to gather detailed information beforehand to avoid unpleasant surprises later.
Is the provider’s battery storage system, which guarantees 20 years, also regularly replaced free of charge? Or is it only the lifespan that is guaranteed, not the storage capacity?
When making a calculation decision, storage losses should also be taken into account. About 20–30% of the electricity fed in is lost when using storage. These figures come from users who complain in specialized forums that the storage system (for example: Nedap Power Router) does not deliver the expected results. Of course, this information is not included in the promotional brochures.
Therefore, it is important to gather detailed information beforehand to avoid unpleasant surprises later.
B
Bauexperte30 Jan 2015 11:43Hello,
Since there is such lively discussion here, I would recommend everyone to consult a professional – a recognized expert in photovoltaics and batteries. In my experience, this usually takes a good 2–3 hours, and since such a conversation is very technical, it cannot be resolved with just one discussion. Internet half-knowledge – especially regarding more "recent" technology – is, in my opinion, a dangerous area and also a playground for “would-be experts” who project their own knowledge onto others.
Best regards, Bauexperte
FrankH schrieb:As far as I know, the batteries of the systems we have sold so far are not currently installed inside but outside the house.
,
Apparently, nowadays anyone can just store those things relatively unprotected in the basement.
Since there is such lively discussion here, I would recommend everyone to consult a professional – a recognized expert in photovoltaics and batteries. In my experience, this usually takes a good 2–3 hours, and since such a conversation is very technical, it cannot be resolved with just one discussion. Internet half-knowledge – especially regarding more "recent" technology – is, in my opinion, a dangerous area and also a playground for “would-be experts” who project their own knowledge onto others.
Best regards, Bauexperte
Häuslebau3r11 Feb 2015 13:40Tonight we are attending another presentation by a construction company. We were there last week for a different topic, and today it’s about “Energy-Efficient Building.”
I’m curious if they will also discuss storage systems like batteries and so on.
Regards, Andi
I’m curious if they will also discuss storage systems like batteries and so on.
Regards, Andi
Does anyone have experience with storage systems / tax authorities and being "non-small business"?
Specifically: With my current photovoltaic system, I feed the excess electricity into the grid and consume about 20-25% for self-use.
The problem is: When I installed the system three years ago, the regulations regarding taxation of self-consumption were more relaxed / unclear. That’s why I chose the "non-small business" option.
As far as I understand, the new rule is: Self-consumption counts as a sale to the grid operator (meaning you have to pay 19% VAT) plus a private withdrawal by me as an individual—which means payment from private person to business—resulting in increased company profit and thus higher taxes the company has to pay. The catch: A sale/purchase price of 20 cents was assumed. This means that VAT input deduction and depreciation benefits no longer make financial sense.
Now, the specific question: How is this handled for storage systems? Is this also considered a sale/purchase, or is it treated differently?
Specifically: With my current photovoltaic system, I feed the excess electricity into the grid and consume about 20-25% for self-use.
The problem is: When I installed the system three years ago, the regulations regarding taxation of self-consumption were more relaxed / unclear. That’s why I chose the "non-small business" option.
As far as I understand, the new rule is: Self-consumption counts as a sale to the grid operator (meaning you have to pay 19% VAT) plus a private withdrawal by me as an individual—which means payment from private person to business—resulting in increased company profit and thus higher taxes the company has to pay. The catch: A sale/purchase price of 20 cents was assumed. This means that VAT input deduction and depreciation benefits no longer make financial sense.
Now, the specific question: How is this handled for storage systems? Is this also considered a sale/purchase, or is it treated differently?
N
nordanney11 Feb 2015 14:41From my layperson’s perspective, it works the same as with immediate self-consumption. You need to pay VAT on the self-consumed electricity and record it as a private withdrawal in the profit and loss statement, which results in higher profit and higher taxes. However, the basis is not a flat rate of 20 cents. There is a current guideline that the supplier’s price must be used as the basis.
Roughly calculated: production costs + VAT portion (about 4 cents) + taxes on profit (which can’t be very high) = price for self-generated electricity.
Roughly calculated: production costs + VAT portion (about 4 cents) + taxes on profit (which can’t be very high) = price for self-generated electricity.
I found something online:
Interesting – battery storage systems are apparently exempt from sales tax and therefore also from personal use taxation:
Sales Tax for Private Photovoltaic Self-Consumption
The Federal Ministry of Finance has finally released a statement that clarifies the tax treatment of photovoltaic systems and battery storage.
The Federal Ministry of Finance has issued a long-awaited letter detailing the tax treatment of photovoltaic systems and battery storage.
This information is relevant for system owners who register for sales tax in order to reclaim the sales tax paid on the purchase from the tax authorities. This is usually worthwhile and therefore commonly done. The photovoltaic system is then treated as a business asset for tax purposes, and privately consumed solar power must be taxed.
Previously, the Federal Ministry of Finance (BMF) provided clear statements only for systems commissioned between 2009 and March 2012. These systems receive remuneration for self-consumed electricity, and for tax purposes, this electricity is treated as if it had been fed into the grid and simultaneously delivered back by the grid operator. (see explanation in the Federal Solar Industry Association’s leaflet)
According to the latest BMF letter, this approach no longer applies to systems commissioned after the Renewable Energy Act came into effect in April 2012, as the self-consumption remuneration no longer exists for these systems. Instead, privately consumed electricity is recorded as “non-monetary benefit.” The basis for assessment is the purchase price of grid electricity including the fixed basic charge.
Example calculation:
The system owner buys electricity at a net price of 22 cents (without sales tax) and pays a monthly net basic charge of 5 euros. He consumes 3,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity from the grid and uses 1,000 kWh of solar electricity himself. Total electricity consumption is therefore 4,000 kWh. The price per kilowatt-hour is 22 cents plus (5 euros x 12 months / 4,000 kWh =) 1.5 cents = 23.5 cents (net). For the self-consumed solar power, he must pay 1,000 kWh x 0.235 euros x 0.19 (tax rate) = 44.65 euros sales tax to the tax office*.
The BMF letter also includes a note on battery storage. If the battery is considered a “separately assigned asset” for sales tax purposes, the input tax deduction is forfeited if the storage is used only for private electricity consumption. This can be the case for retrofitted battery storage systems. However, if the battery is part of a newly installed system, the input tax deduction should be granted. (Thomas Seltmann)
*) Note: In an earlier version of this post, the basic charge was only applied to electricity purchases. According to information from the BMF, the corrected calculation shown here is accurate. See also the additional post on this topic from 29.10.2014.
Source: Photovoltaics Magazine
Interesting – battery storage systems are apparently exempt from sales tax and therefore also from personal use taxation:
Sales Tax for Private Photovoltaic Self-Consumption
The Federal Ministry of Finance has finally released a statement that clarifies the tax treatment of photovoltaic systems and battery storage.
The Federal Ministry of Finance has issued a long-awaited letter detailing the tax treatment of photovoltaic systems and battery storage.
This information is relevant for system owners who register for sales tax in order to reclaim the sales tax paid on the purchase from the tax authorities. This is usually worthwhile and therefore commonly done. The photovoltaic system is then treated as a business asset for tax purposes, and privately consumed solar power must be taxed.
Previously, the Federal Ministry of Finance (BMF) provided clear statements only for systems commissioned between 2009 and March 2012. These systems receive remuneration for self-consumed electricity, and for tax purposes, this electricity is treated as if it had been fed into the grid and simultaneously delivered back by the grid operator. (see explanation in the Federal Solar Industry Association’s leaflet)
According to the latest BMF letter, this approach no longer applies to systems commissioned after the Renewable Energy Act came into effect in April 2012, as the self-consumption remuneration no longer exists for these systems. Instead, privately consumed electricity is recorded as “non-monetary benefit.” The basis for assessment is the purchase price of grid electricity including the fixed basic charge.
Example calculation:
The system owner buys electricity at a net price of 22 cents (without sales tax) and pays a monthly net basic charge of 5 euros. He consumes 3,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of electricity from the grid and uses 1,000 kWh of solar electricity himself. Total electricity consumption is therefore 4,000 kWh. The price per kilowatt-hour is 22 cents plus (5 euros x 12 months / 4,000 kWh =) 1.5 cents = 23.5 cents (net). For the self-consumed solar power, he must pay 1,000 kWh x 0.235 euros x 0.19 (tax rate) = 44.65 euros sales tax to the tax office*.
The BMF letter also includes a note on battery storage. If the battery is considered a “separately assigned asset” for sales tax purposes, the input tax deduction is forfeited if the storage is used only for private electricity consumption. This can be the case for retrofitted battery storage systems. However, if the battery is part of a newly installed system, the input tax deduction should be granted. (Thomas Seltmann)
*) Note: In an earlier version of this post, the basic charge was only applied to electricity purchases. According to information from the BMF, the corrected calculation shown here is accurate. See also the additional post on this topic from 29.10.2014.
Source: Photovoltaics Magazine
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