We have chosen the two energy sources mentioned above as our favorites. Now we need to decide which is suitable for us. Our house is about 143m² (1,539 sq ft).
What would you recommend? What are the pros and cons of each? Are there any details on average operating and installation costs? Lifespan, etc.?
Thank you.
What would you recommend? What are the pros and cons of each? Are there any details on average operating and installation costs? Lifespan, etc.?
Thank you.
Grym schrieb:
Promotional link? That was just a source, but here it is as text:An online shop is not an information site!
Hello,
I chose not to include the links. But a Viessmann Vitodens 300 W (according to Viessmann’s website their high-end product) can be delivered to your home with installation materials, flue pipe, and extended warranty (!!) for about €3000. Of course, you’ll probably find someone charging €4400, but you don’t have to buy from them...
It really can’t be that overpriced; the Viessmann 300 was the standard for 3 out of 4 general contractors I’ve talked to.
According to the current energy saving regulations, gas plus solar for domestic hot water is sufficient. Otherwise, at least 20 houses within about 200 m of here would have been built illegally, and I’d be curious how the general contractor would fulfill my order then...
Anyway, I’m not claiming that this table is always and for everyone accurate. It always depends on local conditions and personal preferences. Here, for example, a gas connection seems cheaper than elsewhere, and for me only an indoor heat pump would be an option. I’d always want to jam a stick into those noisy outdoor units... And indoor installation is immediately much more expensive—the unit costs more, plus you need a waterproof shaft for the penetration through the waterproof concrete slab, etc.... That’s quite a bit more than a gas connection and flue pipe cost.
But conditions are just different for everyone.
Best regards,
Andreas
Bauexperte schrieb:
A standard gas boiler with flow temperature; but not a proper condensing gas boiler, I just don’t believe that... sorry. A good Viessmann, for example, starts at €4.4k and we aren’t even talking about installation costs yet.
In my opinion, this discussion is pointless because with “just” gas, under the new energy saving regulations, you won’t get far; adding solar for domestic hot water alone isn’t enough. That’s simply not compliant with the current energy saving regulations.
I chose not to include the links. But a Viessmann Vitodens 300 W (according to Viessmann’s website their high-end product) can be delivered to your home with installation materials, flue pipe, and extended warranty (!!) for about €3000. Of course, you’ll probably find someone charging €4400, but you don’t have to buy from them...
It really can’t be that overpriced; the Viessmann 300 was the standard for 3 out of 4 general contractors I’ve talked to.
According to the current energy saving regulations, gas plus solar for domestic hot water is sufficient. Otherwise, at least 20 houses within about 200 m of here would have been built illegally, and I’d be curious how the general contractor would fulfill my order then...
Anyway, I’m not claiming that this table is always and for everyone accurate. It always depends on local conditions and personal preferences. Here, for example, a gas connection seems cheaper than elsewhere, and for me only an indoor heat pump would be an option. I’d always want to jam a stick into those noisy outdoor units... And indoor installation is immediately much more expensive—the unit costs more, plus you need a waterproof shaft for the penetration through the waterproof concrete slab, etc.... That’s quite a bit more than a gas connection and flue pipe cost.
But conditions are just different for everyone.
Best regards,
Andreas
B
Bauexperte16 Nov 2015 10:57Grym schrieb:
Why is gas no longer allowed according to the new energy saving regulations? Check the threads here; this topic has been discussed frequently recently, so a new explanation isn’t really necessary.
Grym schrieb:
Has the €4,500 (approximately $4,800) subsidy for the ground-source heat pump been offset? Yes, but it only partially reduces the drilling risk in a very basic way.
Regards, Bauexperte
B
Bauexperte16 Nov 2015 11:02Hello Andreas,
That has never been possible here (NRW); without controlled residential ventilation with heat recovery, there is no KfW 70 certification.
Then you seem to be more than just noise sensitive; some birds with their morning songs are louder.
Regards, Bauexperte
andimann schrieb:
According to the current energy saving regulations, gas and solar are sufficient for domestic hot water. Otherwise, at least 20 houses within about 200 m (650 feet) would have been built illegally around here.
That has never been possible here (NRW); without controlled residential ventilation with heat recovery, there is no KfW 70 certification.
andimann schrieb:
I always feel like sticking a stick into the fan of those damn noisy outdoor units...
Then you seem to be more than just noise sensitive; some birds with their morning songs are louder.
Regards, Bauexperte
Hi Bauexperte,
It’s quite possible that none of the houses actually have KfW 70 certification. But what use is that to me? The subsidy for KfW 70 is modest, so it’s not worth paying several thousand euros extra.
For KfW 55 and 40 it’s even less worthwhile. At that point, it’s more a question of whether you want to ease your conscience with such a house.
In that case, it would be better to skip vacations, because that makes a much bigger difference:
A single holiday flight for a family of four from Hamburg to Gran Canaria roughly equals the consumption of 1000 liters (220 gallons) of kerosene (= 1000 liters (220 gallons) of heating oil = 10,000 kWh).
That one flight releases as much CO2 as the heating system at home emits in an entire year!!!
Thinking back to the times when I flew to Asia for work up to 12 times a year, I probably shouldn’t turn on my heating for the rest of my life.
Driving a smaller car helps the environment far more than any mechanical ventilation system or whatever else saves a tedious 1000 kWh. Ironically, in front of the houses whose owners are so proud of their KfW 55 or whatever rating, you find T5 vans, Mercedes M-Class SUVs, or Q7s…
You can tell just from that how pointless the debate is about whether such a house consumes 8 or 12 thousand kWh. Frankly, it’s pretty irrelevant.
But we’re not the ones to decide; laws are what they are and we have to work with them.
Bauexperte, if you’re around here this winter, feel free to stop by. I’ll gladly show you plenty of heat pumps that run their fans at full speed below 0°C (32°F), making a noise like standing on an airport runway between jet engines. The worst case is our neighbor diagonally across. His outdoor unit is 35 meters (115 feet) from our bedroom window (measured!). Above 5°C (41°F), that unit is so loud that we can hear it with the window open—and find it disturbing. He also complains about somewhat high electricity bills…
And no, I’m not a musician with perfect pitch, my wife feels the same.
These are the heat pumps I know, and so far no supplier has been willing to guarantee a maximum noise level in writing (let alone a guaranteed annual performance factor), so that’s obviously the current state of technology.
Best regards,
Andreas
Bauexperte schrieb:
That was never possible here (NRW); without a mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery, no KfW 70 certification.
Then you must be more sensitive to noise than most; some birds are louder with their morning songs.
It’s quite possible that none of the houses actually have KfW 70 certification. But what use is that to me? The subsidy for KfW 70 is modest, so it’s not worth paying several thousand euros extra.
For KfW 55 and 40 it’s even less worthwhile. At that point, it’s more a question of whether you want to ease your conscience with such a house.
In that case, it would be better to skip vacations, because that makes a much bigger difference:
A single holiday flight for a family of four from Hamburg to Gran Canaria roughly equals the consumption of 1000 liters (220 gallons) of kerosene (= 1000 liters (220 gallons) of heating oil = 10,000 kWh).
That one flight releases as much CO2 as the heating system at home emits in an entire year!!!
Thinking back to the times when I flew to Asia for work up to 12 times a year, I probably shouldn’t turn on my heating for the rest of my life.
Driving a smaller car helps the environment far more than any mechanical ventilation system or whatever else saves a tedious 1000 kWh. Ironically, in front of the houses whose owners are so proud of their KfW 55 or whatever rating, you find T5 vans, Mercedes M-Class SUVs, or Q7s…
You can tell just from that how pointless the debate is about whether such a house consumes 8 or 12 thousand kWh. Frankly, it’s pretty irrelevant.
But we’re not the ones to decide; laws are what they are and we have to work with them.
Bauexperte, if you’re around here this winter, feel free to stop by. I’ll gladly show you plenty of heat pumps that run their fans at full speed below 0°C (32°F), making a noise like standing on an airport runway between jet engines. The worst case is our neighbor diagonally across. His outdoor unit is 35 meters (115 feet) from our bedroom window (measured!). Above 5°C (41°F), that unit is so loud that we can hear it with the window open—and find it disturbing. He also complains about somewhat high electricity bills…
And no, I’m not a musician with perfect pitch, my wife feels the same.
These are the heat pumps I know, and so far no supplier has been willing to guarantee a maximum noise level in writing (let alone a guaranteed annual performance factor), so that’s obviously the current state of technology.
Best regards,
Andreas
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