Hello everyone,
We have been debating for a long time whether to use vinyl or tiles for the apartments in our multi-family house. We live on the ground floor. The upper floors including the attic are rented out. A new thin-bed screed with underfloor heating has been installed. Below the screed there is mineral wool insulation.
Our neighbor has had bad experiences with tiles regarding impact sound insulation in the upper floors, so we are a bit skeptical about tiles. That’s why we plan to install vinyl in the attic for now. The click vinyl we are considering already includes impact sound insulation (black rubber layer on the underside). Does it actually make sense to install a second sound insulation underlay beneath the click vinyl? According to the seller, this is allowed for this vinyl and the underlay thickness is 1.8mm (0.07 inches) approximately (around €3.90 per m²).
1. Are these underlays effective, or would using two layers be counterproductive?
2. Tiles are planned for the bathrooms. I have read about uncoupling mats that also provide impact sound insulation (up to 17 or 18 dB). Does anyone have experience with these, or would they be a waste of money? (around €9-11 per m²)
Best regards
We have been debating for a long time whether to use vinyl or tiles for the apartments in our multi-family house. We live on the ground floor. The upper floors including the attic are rented out. A new thin-bed screed with underfloor heating has been installed. Below the screed there is mineral wool insulation.
Our neighbor has had bad experiences with tiles regarding impact sound insulation in the upper floors, so we are a bit skeptical about tiles. That’s why we plan to install vinyl in the attic for now. The click vinyl we are considering already includes impact sound insulation (black rubber layer on the underside). Does it actually make sense to install a second sound insulation underlay beneath the click vinyl? According to the seller, this is allowed for this vinyl and the underlay thickness is 1.8mm (0.07 inches) approximately (around €3.90 per m²).
1. Are these underlays effective, or would using two layers be counterproductive?
2. Tiles are planned for the bathrooms. I have read about uncoupling mats that also provide impact sound insulation (up to 17 or 18 dB). Does anyone have experience with these, or would they be a waste of money? (around €9-11 per m²)
Best regards
Hello "Netzplan".
Personally, I see it as a positive approach when someone informs themselves in advance about the advantages and possibly the disadvantages of their planned flooring construction.
To your questions, here are the clear answers:
A two-layer installation of the so-called "impact sound insulation foil" is definitely counterproductive.
Why?
Nowadays, the locking mechanisms of the floor panels are very finely engineered. They hold (there are actually no standards for the required tensile strength here) and therefore fulfill their purpose.
If you add another flexible layer beneath the floor panels, it will very likely create bending moments between the panels and thus at the edges, which inevitably negatively affect the locking mechanism.
This means, in the worst case, gaps will form between the panel edges because the locks at the sides open.
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Regarding your second question:
The purpose of uncoupling mats is to stabilize a critical screed surface to a certain extent, so that the layers applied by a floor or tile installer and the associated stresses do not affect the screed surface.
This has nothing to do with soundproofing!
Sound insulation that genuinely deserves the name is always installed beneath the screed (this is also required by the test regulations for impact sound measurements, whose test setup always assumes a concrete ceiling as the base).
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Good luck with your further planning: KlaRa
Personally, I see it as a positive approach when someone informs themselves in advance about the advantages and possibly the disadvantages of their planned flooring construction.
To your questions, here are the clear answers:
A two-layer installation of the so-called "impact sound insulation foil" is definitely counterproductive.
Why?
Nowadays, the locking mechanisms of the floor panels are very finely engineered. They hold (there are actually no standards for the required tensile strength here) and therefore fulfill their purpose.
If you add another flexible layer beneath the floor panels, it will very likely create bending moments between the panels and thus at the edges, which inevitably negatively affect the locking mechanism.
This means, in the worst case, gaps will form between the panel edges because the locks at the sides open.
----------
Regarding your second question:
The purpose of uncoupling mats is to stabilize a critical screed surface to a certain extent, so that the layers applied by a floor or tile installer and the associated stresses do not affect the screed surface.
This has nothing to do with soundproofing!
Sound insulation that genuinely deserves the name is always installed beneath the screed (this is also required by the test regulations for impact sound measurements, whose test setup always assumes a concrete ceiling as the base).
-----------------------------
Good luck with your further planning: KlaRa
I had a soundproofing layer installed on a solid wood ceiling on the upper floor and am very satisfied with its effectiveness.
-> Köhnke grit filling 5-8mm with binder K102, approximately 80mm (3 inches) thick.
70m² (750 sq ft) cost about €2200 in April 2021. The binder K102 (similar to a sticky rubber) turns the loose grit into a tough, elastic layer.
-> Köhnke grit filling 5-8mm with binder K102, approximately 80mm (3 inches) thick.
70m² (750 sq ft) cost about €2200 in April 2021. The binder K102 (similar to a sticky rubber) turns the loose grit into a tough, elastic layer.
KlaRa schrieb:
A two-layer installation of the so-called "impact sound foil" is definitely counterproductive. Thank you very much @KlaRa for the very detailed assistance. Wouldn’t counterproductive rather refer to the joints between the vinyl, but not regarding impact sound? Could further improvement be expected with double impact sound insulation? For example, there is the "b!design insulation underlay Silent Underlay Profi," which is supposedly designed specifically for vinyl/SPC/rigid flooring. However, I just read "Not suitable for vinyl floors with integrated impact sound insulation."
KlaRa schrieb:
So this has nothing to do with soundproofing! For example, I found the following products:
PCI POLYSILENT PLUS – 16 dB – (55€/m²)
Schlüter-DITRA-SOUND – 13 dB – (21€/m²)
Sopro TEB 664 – 17 dB – (19€/m²)
Dural DURABASE SW14 – 14 dB – (13€/m²)
Impact sound is explicitly mentioned here. Somehow, I can't quite imagine how this should work if the decoupling mat is bonded with mortar or adhesive.
i_b_n_a_n schrieb:
I had a sound insulation screed installed on a solid wood ceiling on the upper floor and am very satisfied with the effect. Good. Under the screed we also have mineral wool and bound insulation aggregate. Unfortunately, the mineral wool is only 2–3 cm (1–1¼ inches). The insulation aggregate underneath (Thermobound EPS granulate) varies by floor between 0–7 cm (0–2¾ inches). The packaging states under "special advantages" that it is sound insulating, but there are no specific values provided.
netzplan schrieb:
Wouldn't that be more counterproductive regarding the "joints" between the vinyl planks, but not in terms of impact sound insulation? Please read carefully what I wrote!
We are talking here about a potential total failure if the locking systems fail due to the ductility of the subfloor (double vapor barrier layers).
All these membranes, which promise to reduce impact sound, cannot achieve what insulation below a mineral screed at least 45mm (1.8 inches) thick in a floating construction can provide.
These membranes are more of an "anti-creak" protection for thin floor coverings (such as laminate flooring panels) when there are still sand grains on the screed surface.
SOUND INSULATION is much more complex than a layperson might assume. It consists of structure-borne, airborne, and room sound.
The only situation where such "impact sound membranes" can be used conditionally is to reduce the "clicking noise" that occurs when walking on loosely laid laminate floor panels.
However, this has nothing to do with soundproofing in residential construction.
Ultimately, it is up to the consumer to decide what they believe and finally purchase or install; experts can only provide their recommendations.
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Regards, KlaRa
KlaRa schrieb:
All those membranes that promise to reduce impact sound cannot deliver what insulation beneath a floating construction with a mineral screed at least 45mm (1.8 inches) thick can achieve.Hello Klara, yes, that’s true. I would therefore skip a second layer. Since it’s "only" about impact sound, an independent question: Regarding impact sound, wouldn’t it make a significant difference whether you use vinyl flooring with integrated impact sound insulation or tile the screed directly?
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