Dear forum members,
My wife and I are currently in the building permit / planning permission phase, constructing a staggered shed roof house in Rhineland-Palatinate (10.25 x 8.50 x 9.75 m (33.6 x 27.9 x 32.0 ft)). During the quotation phase, we changed the masonry from 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) aerated concrete to calcium silicate brick with an external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) of 24 x 14 cm (9.4 x 5.5 inches) for sound insulation reasons, but the basic dimensions remained the same. Yesterday, I received an additional charge regarding the eaves overhangs on the side of the roof. Our building contractor wants to charge us extra because the eaves overhang has allegedly increased by about 14 mm (0.55 inches), which corresponds to the thickness of the ETICS.
When using calcium silicate brick plus ETICS, is the eaves overhang measured from the masonry wall? The construction and scope of work description specified "approximately 65 cm (25.6 inches) on the eaves side and approximately 30 cm (11.8 inches) on the gable side." As a layperson, I assume these measurements refer to the outer edges of the building (including the ETICS). However, from the outside edge of the ETICS, we only have about 51 cm (20.1 inches) on the eaves side and just 16 cm (6.3 inches) on the gable side. Is this correct?
It would be great if someone could provide some insight.
Best regards,
Marco
My wife and I are currently in the building permit / planning permission phase, constructing a staggered shed roof house in Rhineland-Palatinate (10.25 x 8.50 x 9.75 m (33.6 x 27.9 x 32.0 ft)). During the quotation phase, we changed the masonry from 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) aerated concrete to calcium silicate brick with an external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) of 24 x 14 cm (9.4 x 5.5 inches) for sound insulation reasons, but the basic dimensions remained the same. Yesterday, I received an additional charge regarding the eaves overhangs on the side of the roof. Our building contractor wants to charge us extra because the eaves overhang has allegedly increased by about 14 mm (0.55 inches), which corresponds to the thickness of the ETICS.
When using calcium silicate brick plus ETICS, is the eaves overhang measured from the masonry wall? The construction and scope of work description specified "approximately 65 cm (25.6 inches) on the eaves side and approximately 30 cm (11.8 inches) on the gable side." As a layperson, I assume these measurements refer to the outer edges of the building (including the ETICS). However, from the outside edge of the ETICS, we only have about 51 cm (20.1 inches) on the eaves side and just 16 cm (6.3 inches) on the gable side. Is this correct?
It would be great if someone could provide some insight.
Best regards,
Marco
B
Bauexperte18 Jan 2013 13:57Hello Marco,
These are the details of every building contract and a good example of why I always recommend seeking external advice!
Original masonry 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) plus 2.5 cm (1 inch) mineral exterior plaster = 39 cm (15.4 inches); now calcium silicate brick 24 cm (9.4 inches) plus ETICS 14 cm (5.5 inches) plus synthetic plaster 1.5 cm (0.6 inches) results in masonry of 39.5 cm (15.6 inches). By my calculation, your builder made an error unless he applies 2.5 cm (1 inch) synthetic resin plaster, then his claim would be correct.
I assume your supplier’s building specifications are based on a solid wall construction by default? In this case, the roof overhang is measured from the exterior masonry. If the wall construction is changed, the external wall still counts, but it must be considered that additional insulation is installed, which reduces the roof overhang guaranteed in the specifications according to the original standard. Also, 65 cm (26 inches) is quite large – 50 cm (20 inches) is more typical and still looks very good. If necessary, you could accept a larger eaves overhang without major loss of appearance; however, I would recommend adjusting the gable side accordingly.
You confuse me. What wall construction was actually planned initially?
Best regards
These are the details of every building contract and a good example of why I always recommend seeking external advice!
rennem01 schrieb:
We are building a staggered shed roof house in Rhineland-Palatinate (10.25x8.50x9.75 m (34x28x32 ft)). During the offer phase, we changed the masonry from 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) aerated concrete to calcium silicate bricks with an external thermal insulation system (ETICS) 24x14 cm (9.4x5.5 inches) for acoustic reasons, but the basic dimensions remained the same. Yesterday, I received an additional charge regarding the eaves overhangs on the eaves side. Our builder wants us to pay extra because the roof overhang has allegedly increased by about 14 mm (0.55 inches) (the thickness of the ETICS).
Original masonry 36.5 cm (14.4 inches) plus 2.5 cm (1 inch) mineral exterior plaster = 39 cm (15.4 inches); now calcium silicate brick 24 cm (9.4 inches) plus ETICS 14 cm (5.5 inches) plus synthetic plaster 1.5 cm (0.6 inches) results in masonry of 39.5 cm (15.6 inches). By my calculation, your builder made an error unless he applies 2.5 cm (1 inch) synthetic resin plaster, then his claim would be correct.
rennem01 schrieb:
Is the roof overhang for calcium silicate brick plus ETICS measured from the masonry wall? The building specifications state “approx. 65 cm (26 inches) on the eaves side and approx. 30 cm (12 inches) on the gable side.” As a layperson, I assume these dimensions refer to the exterior edges of the building (including the ETICS). Now we only have about 51 cm (20 inches) from the outer edge of the ETICS on the eaves side and only 16 cm (6 inches) on the gable side. Is this correct?
I assume your supplier’s building specifications are based on a solid wall construction by default? In this case, the roof overhang is measured from the exterior masonry. If the wall construction is changed, the external wall still counts, but it must be considered that additional insulation is installed, which reduces the roof overhang guaranteed in the specifications according to the original standard. Also, 65 cm (26 inches) is quite large – 50 cm (20 inches) is more typical and still looks very good. If necessary, you could accept a larger eaves overhang without major loss of appearance; however, I would recommend adjusting the gable side accordingly.
rennem01 schrieb:
Now we only have about 51 cm (20 inches) from the outer edge of the ETICS on the eaves side and only 16 cm (6 inches) on the gable side. Is this correct?
You confuse me. What wall construction was actually planned initially?
Best regards
Hello building expert,
thank you for your reply. I was at work yesterday and probably wrote the post a bit hastily. In the offer, which was the basis for our contract, the wall construction is described as follows: "... in 24cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate brick with approximately 15cm (6 inches) polystyrene insulation and reinforced plaster mesh on the exterior ...". Further down on the same page, the overhangs are described as "... generous roof overhangs of around 65cm (26 inches) on each eave side and approximately 30cm (12 inches) on each gable side ...". I assumed that the overhangs are always measured from the plaster mesh, regardless of the wall construction used.
You are right, the scope of work mainly refers to a monolithic wall construction (aerated concrete, clay brick). Because switching from aerated concrete to 24cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate brick with external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) has essentially not changed the exterior dimensions of the house, but now we apparently have to pay separately for what I believe is the same roof overhang, I got confused, since I thought the material was already included in the price.
Your last question also confuses me. Originally, aerated concrete was planned; now we are building with calcium silicate brick plus ETICS.
Regards,
Marco
thank you for your reply. I was at work yesterday and probably wrote the post a bit hastily. In the offer, which was the basis for our contract, the wall construction is described as follows: "... in 24cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate brick with approximately 15cm (6 inches) polystyrene insulation and reinforced plaster mesh on the exterior ...". Further down on the same page, the overhangs are described as "... generous roof overhangs of around 65cm (26 inches) on each eave side and approximately 30cm (12 inches) on each gable side ...". I assumed that the overhangs are always measured from the plaster mesh, regardless of the wall construction used.
You are right, the scope of work mainly refers to a monolithic wall construction (aerated concrete, clay brick). Because switching from aerated concrete to 24cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate brick with external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) has essentially not changed the exterior dimensions of the house, but now we apparently have to pay separately for what I believe is the same roof overhang, I got confused, since I thought the material was already included in the price.
Your last question also confuses me. Originally, aerated concrete was planned; now we are building with calcium silicate brick plus ETICS.
Regards,
Marco
Regarding the roof overhang, I have come across many different definitions. For example, is the gutter included? Is the measurement taken from the masonry or from the exterior wall junction? If this is not specified in the contract, it will likely be interpreted to each party’s advantage. The possible argument here could be: the wall construction is usually 36.5 cm (14 inches), but now it is 38 cm (15 inches). To maintain the same distance from the exterior wall edge to the roof edge or gutter, I consider it reasonable to account for 1.5 cm (0.6 inches) extra (which roughly corresponds to the 14 mm mentioned above). So, if this is not an excessively large additional charge, it seems quite justified. The question, of course, is how customer-friendly it is not to point this out in advance. This should have already been known during price calculation and offer preparation.
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Bauexperte20 Jan 2013 14:07Hello Marco,
Are you referring to the amendment? What did you originally sign, meaning in the actual building contract? How is the wall construction (aerated concrete/Poroton) described there?
If my calculation => "Original masonry 36.5cm (14 inches) plus 2.5 cm (1 inch) mineral external plaster = 39 cm (15.4 inches); now calcium silicate brick 24 cm (9.5 inches) plus ETICS 14 cm (5.5 inches), plus synthetic plaster 1.5 cm (0.6 inches) – results in a masonry thickness of 39.5 cm (15.6 inches). By my calculation, your contractor made a mistake, unless they apply 2.5 cm (1 inch) synthetic resin plaster, then the amendment matches" is correct, the extra cost is for only 1.4 cm (0.6 inches) since the exterior wall structure changes only marginally.
However, further down you write => "Now we have only about 51 cm (20 inches) on the eave side from the outer edge of the ETICS and only 16 cm (6 inches) on the gable side" THAT cannot be correct, since you would lose 14 cm (5.5 inches). There must be a misunderstanding or communication error somewhere here.
Best regards
rennem01 schrieb:
In the offer that formed the basis for our contract, the wall construction is described as follows: "... approximately 24cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate brick with about 15cm (6 inches) polystyrene insulation and plaster mesh on the outside ...". Further down on the same page, the overhangs are described as "... generous roof overhangs of approximately 65cm (26 inches) on each eave side and about 30cm (12 inches) on each gable side ...".
Are you referring to the amendment? What did you originally sign, meaning in the actual building contract? How is the wall construction (aerated concrete/Poroton) described there?
rennem01 schrieb:
Your last question confuses me as well. Initially, aerated concrete was planned, but now we are building with calcium silicate brick plus ETICS.
If my calculation => "Original masonry 36.5cm (14 inches) plus 2.5 cm (1 inch) mineral external plaster = 39 cm (15.4 inches); now calcium silicate brick 24 cm (9.5 inches) plus ETICS 14 cm (5.5 inches), plus synthetic plaster 1.5 cm (0.6 inches) – results in a masonry thickness of 39.5 cm (15.6 inches). By my calculation, your contractor made a mistake, unless they apply 2.5 cm (1 inch) synthetic resin plaster, then the amendment matches" is correct, the extra cost is for only 1.4 cm (0.6 inches) since the exterior wall structure changes only marginally.
However, further down you write => "Now we have only about 51 cm (20 inches) on the eave side from the outer edge of the ETICS and only 16 cm (6 inches) on the gable side" THAT cannot be correct, since you would lose 14 cm (5.5 inches). There must be a misunderstanding or communication error somewhere here.
Best regards
Hello Chris82,
First of all, thank you for your reply. I hope quoting works well—I’m trying it for the first time:
The contract unfortunately does not precisely define from which points the overhang is measured, nor whether the gutter is included. In the specification of services, which applies additionally, it states: "Roof overhangs for houses with a gable roof are about 25 cm (10 inches) at the gable ends and about 65 cm (26 inches) at the eaves; for houses with a hip roof, about 40 cm (16 inches) all around." Further down, regarding the gutters: "Gutters will be installed in titanium zinc as half-round, hung gutters. All fittings and required downpipes down to the top edge of the terrain are included." So there is nothing indicating where the reference points for the measurements are.
Our builder justifies the increase as follows: "The roof overhang beyond the insulation is now 60 cm (24 inches). Including the insulation, it is now about 70-75 cm (28-30 inches) measured from the masonry. Normally, with insulation, it would only be 40-45 cm (16-18 inches)."
I described this situation to my building advisor from the Private Homeowners Association. His answer was quite brief but clear: "If the exterior dimensions stated in the purchase contract include the exterior insulation, then this distance applies as the starting point for the roof overhang, unless your contract says otherwise."
So, regarding the purchase contract:
The exterior dimensions of our house are in the contract. The contract also specifies the wall structure as 24 cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate blocks with about 15 cm (6 inches) polystyrene insulation and plaster mesh on the outside. The roof overhangs follow the standard according to the service description, which is 65 cm (26 inches) at the eaves and 25 cm (10 inches) at the gable ends. The contract contains no mention of reduced roof overhangs for buildings with external thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS). I see it this way: we are expected to pay 400 euros for a service that should already be included in our purchase price, right?
Regards,
Marco
First of all, thank you for your reply. I hope quoting works well—I’m trying it for the first time:
Chris82 schrieb:
Regarding the roof overhang, I have read many definitions. For example, does the gutter count as part of it? Is it measured from the masonry or the exterior wall connection? If it is not defined in the contract, everyone will probably interpret it to their advantage. The possible argument here might be: the standard wall structure is 36.5 cm (14 inches), but now it is 38 cm (15 inches). To maintain the same distance from the exterior wall edge to the roof end or gutter, I consider it legitimate to count an additional 1.5 cm (about 14 mm/0.6 inches). So if this is not an exorbitantly high additional charge, it may be justified. The question is, however, how customer-friendly it is not to point this out beforehand. Because this should have already been known during the price calculation and offer preparation.
The contract unfortunately does not precisely define from which points the overhang is measured, nor whether the gutter is included. In the specification of services, which applies additionally, it states: "Roof overhangs for houses with a gable roof are about 25 cm (10 inches) at the gable ends and about 65 cm (26 inches) at the eaves; for houses with a hip roof, about 40 cm (16 inches) all around." Further down, regarding the gutters: "Gutters will be installed in titanium zinc as half-round, hung gutters. All fittings and required downpipes down to the top edge of the terrain are included." So there is nothing indicating where the reference points for the measurements are.
Our builder justifies the increase as follows: "The roof overhang beyond the insulation is now 60 cm (24 inches). Including the insulation, it is now about 70-75 cm (28-30 inches) measured from the masonry. Normally, with insulation, it would only be 40-45 cm (16-18 inches)."
I described this situation to my building advisor from the Private Homeowners Association. His answer was quite brief but clear: "If the exterior dimensions stated in the purchase contract include the exterior insulation, then this distance applies as the starting point for the roof overhang, unless your contract says otherwise."
So, regarding the purchase contract:
The exterior dimensions of our house are in the contract. The contract also specifies the wall structure as 24 cm (9.5 inches) calcium silicate blocks with about 15 cm (6 inches) polystyrene insulation and plaster mesh on the outside. The roof overhangs follow the standard according to the service description, which is 65 cm (26 inches) at the eaves and 25 cm (10 inches) at the gable ends. The contract contains no mention of reduced roof overhangs for buildings with external thermal insulation composite systems (ETICS). I see it this way: we are expected to pay 400 euros for a service that should already be included in our purchase price, right?
Regards,
Marco
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